Should I still be calling you usted'? When do I stop...why did i even start?
What in the heck are the rules!!! I mean, who do I have to use the usted form with? I am a 27 year old man. Does that mean that anyone 28 and older should be called "usted'"
What about when you first get to know somebody? Let me inform those of you who don't know, that it is common address strangers (regadless of age) as "usted." For example: two 20-year-old men start talking on the street, the whole time referring to eachother as "usted." What if they become friends''? Who is the first to break away from "usted'" Because I'm pretty sure two 20-year-old men aren't going to go around calling eachother "usted...." More like "huay."
Well, as always I appreciate the feedback...if you have any other relevant info please add it!
25 Answers
I don't see any of these members here nowadays but it's quite a good thread. I was intending to make my own but this will do nicely.
In 'Amar en Tiempos Revueltos' (tve soap/serial set in 1950's Madrid) I've heard 2 cases of women saying:
'Do I look that old?' when the other woman addressed them in the 'usted' form.
Also, I've heard a (middle to upper class) mother being shocked to hear her daughter 'tutear' her personal home tutor, whereas the tutor in question is happy that the girl addresses her in the 'tú' form.
I also heard a police officer tell someone to 'put the gun down', initially saying '¡Baje la arma! but then changing to '¡Baja la arma!' I'm fairly certain about that, and I felt he must have made a judgement on the person he was talking to, or maybe it would give more weight to his command?
It's just so very interesting to those of us who have never before had such a concept to understand.
What I'm wondering now is, whether or not some people may use 'usted' to maintain a distance from somebody they don't want to encourage in friendship?
I know that in Heidi's neck of the woods almost nobody uses "usted," even with strangers. This shocked me because I would certainly prefer to convey my respect to elders, strangers, taxi drivers, and shop keepers. I always use "usted" with those folks until they tell me otherwise.
That must be an English cultural bias. I wrote to a woman in Argentina for a while and she asked me why I used the formal tone with her. (She was my age). I told her that I would never be presumptuous enough to "tutearte" with a woman unless she had given me prior permission. She quickly explained the cultural differences.
I tried to explain to her our (now antiquated) custom of only addressing a woman as Miss (Ms).... or Mrs.... until she gave you permission to address her by her Christian name, but I don't think that she understood the flavor of it.
Suffice it to say that using the formal tone is not always understood as a show of respect.
Sally said:
What I'm wondering now is, whether or not some people may use 'usted' to maintain a distance from somebody they don't want to encourage in friendship?
Interesting!
I know that in Heidi's neck of the woods almost nobody uses "usted," even with strangers. This shocked me because I would certainly prefer to convey my respect to elders, strangers, taxi drivers, and shop keepers. I always use "usted" with those folks until they tell me otherwise.
Like I've said other times, it's almost impossible to come to a definite conclusion regarding the use of tú/usted, as there are so many variables that it could make your head spin (age, social background, region, nature of the relation between the speakers, etc..). When in doubt it is easier to just say 'usted', and if the other person doesn't fancy being addressed that way he or she will just tell you to 'tutear' him/her.
I don't watch that soap opera -or any other one for that matter 
- but from a glance I can tell you that the use of usted in those times was radically different from today's. For instance all kids were supposed to address their parents as 'usted' and 'padre/madre', whereas nowadays everyone addresses their parents as 'tú' and 'papá/mamá'. Social differences played a large role too, and anybody deemed of an inferior social status would be almost crazy to address even a younger man or lady as 'tú', at least without explicit consent, as that would have been considered an insolence. Especially house servants or people working for you.
Conversely, since a large part of calling people 'usted' depends on the age of your interlocutor, if you call someone 'usted' you can artificially make them feel older than they are, and will promptly tell you to address them as 'tú', even if there is a considerable age difference (myself included).
That said, you shouldn't take many conclusions about the way they talk in current TV shows, especially in 'Águila Roja', which is almost 100% modern Spanish, absolutely nothing like the Old Spanish that was spoken hundreds of years ago (well, the language is probably one of many things that are nowhere close to what they should, but still). In the 80's and 90's they used to make an effort to imitate old grammar and vocabulary, but it seems that they don't consider that important anymore.
Hi, I know you asked this question a long time ago, but I just joined and wanted to add to the fun confusion here
I was born in Argentina where we do not use "TU". We only use "USTED" and "VOS", vos goes intead of tu, and you can use it with anyone that you have some kind of familiarity with, or someone that is younger than you as a norm but sometimes is OK to use Usted for someone younger if he/she doesn't seem very friendly
It is also OK to use Vos with older people when they are family or friends or if you asked them if it is OK.
Sometimes a young 35 years old woman can feel very depress if somene younger uses usted with her, she might feel very old! LOL, I know it is confusing, but this vos is being used in several Countries and regions of Countries like Colombia and Ecuador too. There are too many Countries that uses different kind of Spanish, all very familiar between them and all understandable. South american Spanish is very similar and also kind of similar with Spain Spanish unless the Spaniards are from specific regions that speak what is called Catalan, very complicated dialect for a regular Spanish speaking person.
Mexican Spanish is the one that I believe has the most differences because they mix some indian dialect and english words. I coudn't believe when I hear "aparcar" for parking a car......the correct way is estacionar el automovil instead of aparcar el carro.....
Hope I help some way......or may be I confuse you some more
Keep up the good learning!
In the post-Franco years with the advent of democracy and "los progres" the use of "Usted" especially in the North, became unfashionable and was increasingly relaxed and in some circles was seen as reactionary.
Man, if any native spanish speaker gets offended by a foreigner trying to communicate with them in a second language, and 'dares' to use 'tu' instead of 'usted', I'm going to have to say..in that case, I think the problem is the native speaker's. Speaking a second language can be tough enough without having to think in 3rd person conjugations when the person is there right in front of you.
Haha, personally, I just use 'tu' with everybody. I'd feel SO weird using 'usted' with anyone..well, I WOULD use it if I were to meet the president of Spain or something..
-Charlius-
Suffice it to say that using the formal tone is not always understood as a show of respect.
I tried to explain to her our (now antiquated) custom
In my opinion the lack of showing respect in a formal way is a big loss; to all parties concerned. Those believing it’s a custom to be disregarded because it's the 21st century are losing a great deal in what true character means.
In south Texas there is a culture that was Mexican hundreds of years ago but has evolved to 'Tejano'. Their Spanish has an accent that is very beautiful and soft. I was eating at a senior center last week with two tejanos, a man in his 70s and a woman in her 50s who had known each other all their lives. He used usted when addressing her.
What in the heck are the rules!!! I mean, who do I have to use the usted form with?
because I would certainly prefer to convey my respect to
who had known each other all their lives. He used usted when addressing her.
In my opinion, the rules have to do with respect. Sometimes respect refers to age. Sometimes respect refers to position; a parent, the president of a country, your boss, your family, your friend, your mate. Sometimes respect refers to gender. Respect is never something you grow out of. You do it because it's in your character; because you want to. And because the ones you show respect to understand why you are doing it. It's like Daniel calling Miyagi, Mr. Miyagi, after so many years of friendship.
Man, if any native spanish speaker gets offended by a foreigner trying to communicate with them in a second language, and 'dares' to use 'tu' instead of 'usted', I'm going to have to say..in that case, I think the problem is the native speaker's. Speaking a second language can be tough enough without having to think in 3rd person conjugations when the person is there right in front of you.
You said exactly what I was thinking Charlius! I mean - give me a break already! (I've been practising my American English - is it ok? )
Speech patterns, like vocabulary, change over time. About a year ago a Swedish member of SD spoke of a similar shift in Sweden from formal address to informal that occurred in (I think) the '60s. The use of tú is much more widespread in Spain and France than it was in, say, the '50s.
When I was growing up many adults still felt/said that (in the presence of grown-ups) "Children should be seen and not heard." or "Children should speak when spoken to." My father used to insist that my brother and I address him as "Father" or "Sir" and (at least in his hearing) our mother as "Mother" or "Ma'am". He hated the use of "Mom", "Pop", etc. Eventually, we turned this into a sort of family joke so that now (when speaking to my brother), I refer to my daughter as "your niece" and he says "your daughter", rather than the informality of referring to her by her given name.
I think to some extent it's a regional thing, but it also varies from person to person. There are people I know fairly well who call me "mi pana" who still use usted verb forms when talking to me, while some complete strangers have used the tu forms.
Pero cuando tu esposa use "usted" para hablar contigo, irás a dormir en el sofá.
Q said:
Suffice it to say that using the formal tone is not always understood as a show of respect.
Hmmm...very interesting point, Q! I am now wondering how many of those people I automatically address as "usted" view it as Sally suggested, "......some people may use 'usted' to maintain a distance from somebody they don't want to encourage in friendship?"
I certainly wouldn't want people to think that I'm "above" them and use "usted" to maintain that distance!
I guess it's always best to ask in each location I visit to see what the local custom is. My next trip is to Guatemala next month....I'll ask my tutor today what she considers appropriate in La Antigua.
In the '50s and '60s American textbooks for French and Spanish routinely offered advice such as "The familiar form of address is only used for members of ones immediate family and addressing small children an pets." A large portion of my first summer in Mexico was devoted to learning the various verb forms that go with "tú" since that was what all of my contemporaries (late teenagers) used among themselves. (When addressing their parents, however, the use of "usted" was more common). Shortly thereafter, I found the same thing to be true in France. Forms of address were simply much more relaxed.
A few years ago, while visiting Panama, I found myself in a conversation with a Cubano (who was trying to obtain Panamanian citizenship/residency) and his (Panamanian) lawyer (who was assisting him in that effort). Because I find 2nd person address more comfortable (and because I was some 10 years older than they), I simply addressed them familiarly. They used "usted" for about 10 minutes at which point I suggested "que nos tuteemos" and, without further discussion/debate we continued using "tú".
Had I been in my '20s and they in their '50s, things might have gone differently.
I think that the difference is one of familiarity/formality rather than respect/disrespect. The concepts overlap to some extent, thus undo/inappropriate familiarity is viewed as a sign of lack of respect. However, by the same token, undue formality can be viewed as a distancing mechanism and an indication that I do not consider you worthy of addressing me as an equal/friend. Thus practices differ from culture to culture and, within cultures, over time.
