The particular use of se

Question

I don't see what makes it necessary to use "se" in the following sentence fragment:

Una vez que Jason Campbell se fracturó la clavícula el domingo ...

I would have expected "fracturó su clavícula". Since he fractured his own clavicle I'm thinking this somehow makes fracturó into a reflexive verb, but that can't be right.

http://www.spanishdict.com/translate/fracturarse - Kiwi-Girl, Oct 19, 2011

Answer 1

It's so you know who's clavicle he fractured.

Jason Campbell se fracturó la clavícula el domingo (se = reflexive = his own)

Jason Campbell fracturó la clavícula el domingo (whose?)

Jason Campbell le fracturó la clavícula el domingo (a alguien) (somebody else)

Nice one :) - Kiwi-Girl, Oct 19, 2011

He didn't break anything. It's not reflexive. - cogumela, Oct 19, 2011

He broke his clavicle. I don't understand what you are saying. His own clavicle. I'm confused now. - jeezzle, Oct 19, 2011

Are you saying what I wrote is wrong here? Because if you are I seriously don't understand, and I would like to. ;) - jeezzle, Oct 19, 2011

Yes, fracturarse is pronominal, not reflexive, because JC didn't fracture anything. It would be reflexive only if he broke something to himself, which is unlikely. - cogumela, Oct 19, 2011

SE is used to indicate that an accident happened to him, as Samdie pointed. No reflexivity in the sentence. - cogumela, Oct 19, 2011

ok so if he took his own clavicle and purposely broke it it'd be reflexive but because it broke, either accidentally or because of someone else it's not reflexive, - se can also be used to mean 'got' can't it like se rompío it got broken - Kiwi-Girl, Oct 19, 2011

which also doesn't mean that 'it' broke itself (reflexive) whatever 'it' might be - Kiwi-Girl, Oct 19, 2011

Answer 2

It's rather unlikely that Jason intentionally fractured his own clavicle. This sort of use of "se" tends to emphasize the fact that it was an accident that befell him.

:) ¡Menos mal! - cogumela, Oct 19, 2011

That would be A Jason Campbell se le fracturó la clavícula el domingo. It's only a reflexive construction. - macapi, Oct 19, 2011

Answer 3

Ok so it's a pronomial construction, is what I wrote here wrong? Secondly, I feel to be impersonal it would need "se le fracturó" as indicated by Visitor. and I DO feel like se le fracturó would work, wouldn't it? Then what about all the ones I put

Jason Campbell se fracturó la clavícula el domingo (se = reflexive / pronomial = his own)

Jason Campbell fracturó la clavícula el domingo (whose?)

Jason Campbell le fracturó la clavícula el domingo (a alguien) (somebody else)

are they wrong or is just the wording wrong "pronomial" not "reflexive". Certainly doesn't look impersonal. so are we just talking semantics here between reflexive and pronomial? Or do you mean how I have it is actually wrong?

Gracias.

You are very right on sentences 2 and 3. But over 1, I insist: JC didn't break anything, rather, he was the patient. - cogumela, Oct 19, 2011

"JC didn't break anything, rather, he was the patient. - " this makes no sense in English. The patient breaks his leg. In English we say "you break your arm" doesn't matter if someone else broke it. You broke it. - jeezzle, Oct 19, 2011

I can't think of a way to translate what you wrote ""JC didn't break anything, rather, he was the patient. - " because he was the patient and he broke his clavicle. Even though "he" didn't break it. He broke it. That's just how we say it. - jeezzle, Oct 19, 2011

But sentence 1 is written right? They are all written right? The semantics / behing the scenes / grammar issues.....aren't my thing, just the correct daily usage and I think I have it then. If he broke it or if someone else did, it's understandable. ;) - jeezzle, Oct 19, 2011

Answer 4

I don't know if it's mandatory to use this verb reflexively, but it is common for verbs referring to something that happened to oneself to be used reflexively. Sometimes it's required, sometimes it's optional. Here are some examples.

"Se le rompió la pierna.

Se rasuró esta mañana.

Se murió.

Oh, so there is a common usage of this reflexive style? I'll have to be on the lookout for it. - Pablo-Peligroso, Oct 19, 2011

Answer 5

Lazarus, I miss you.

Se le rompió la pierna

indicates that the leg got broken by itself, spontaneously, without any external cause. JC was reading when, suddenly, his leg got broken.

Se rompió (su propia) pierna

Used reflexively, we are saying that JC deliberately comitted self-injury.

Se rompió la pierna

Used pronominaly, an accident befell to JC, with the result of one leg broken.

spontaneously without an e. without any external cause. - jeezzle, Oct 19, 2011

Did Lazurus leave again, I was wondering. - jeezzle, Oct 19, 2011

Thanks, Jeezz :) - cogumela, Oct 19, 2011

You and I both are sure missing Lazarus. :-( - territurtle, Oct 20, 2011

Answer 6

Hey, great information here. Thanks much.

As an irrelevant aside: It's interesting to think of a guy breaking his bone in a football game as a reflexive action. I wouldn't say that he had nothing to do with it (har har) but I would figure that somebody else did have a lot to do with it.

Answer 7

You're right. It's the reflexive verb fracturarse.

Oh! I never saw that one. Thanks .. - Pablo-Peligroso, Oct 19, 2011

Visitor, it's definitely not reflexive - cogumela, Oct 19, 2011

Can you explain why it's not reflexive cogu? fracturarse un brazo/una pierna -> to fracture one's arm/leg - jeezzle, Oct 19, 2011

You mean it's only pronominal but not reflexive just like caerse? - macapi, Oct 19, 2011

Sí, eso es. - cogumela, Oct 19, 2011