when is sonreir reflexive?

Question

My Spanish textbook gives us "reir" and "reirse de", and "sonreir" , "sonreirse" but no good examples of when to use which form. Are "reir" and "sonreir" only reflexive (with "de") if the object is stated? I.E. "Yo rio mucho" but "me rio de sus chistes"

Answer 1

When you smile at someone, or someone smiles at you or someone else, (transitive), sonreír would be used.

You can't "smile someone", ie. there can't be a direct object. You can "smile at someone", in which case "someone" is the object of a preposition in English and an indirect object in Spanish.

Answer 2

And lookie here - a comment from our own Lazarus

It is basically a superfluous "se", and the difference is so subtle that it is almost impossible to explain, because it is probably different from speaker to speaker, and from country to country.

Nice find! - samdie, Oct 2, 2011

I'll go with whatever Lazarus says. Thanks. - KevinB, Oct 2, 2011

Answer 3

I don't think that sonreír differs from any other verb as far as when it is reflexive. When the object of the verb's action mirrors the subject the verb is being used reflexively.

[yo] me sonreí=I smiled to/at myself

[ella] se sonrió=she smiled to/at herself

The unusual thing about sonreír(se) is that it is intransitive so:

[ella] me sonrió=she smiled at me with the me being an i.o.; not a d.o.

[ella] le sonrió (a ella)=she smiled at her

How to distinguish whether it is reflexive or not is to determine if the pronoun is a reflexive pronoun or an i.o. pronoun (which only really matters in the 3rd person)

[yo] me sonreí=reflexive (me being a reflexive pronoun)

[yo] te sonreí=non-reflexive (te being an i.o.p.)

Real SPanish speakers, please confirm!

Don't count this as a confirmation...not a Real Spanish speaker

¡Bienvenida al foro!

Welcome to the forum!

I much prefer it when you say "the verb is being used reflexively" (rather than "when it is reflexive"). - samdie, Oct 2, 2011

Perhaps, you (with your paranormal abilities for finding appropriate quotations on the web) can come up with an example of a verb that is always used reflexively. - samdie, Oct 2, 2011

Answer 4

I don't really agree with Q or Jeremias here. I would count this as an example of "Se de matización"

Like the subtle difference here: No mueras, no te mueras. They mean pretty much the same thing. (subtle differences).

alguien murió / alguien se murió

alguien sonrió / alguien se sonrió

Not reflexive, just subtle differences.

The difference comes in the 3rd person when you have to chose a pronoun se or le. If you are not using a pronoun, no problem. - 0074b507, Oct 2, 2011

I didn't think that the question was about the difference between sonreír and sonreírse. Just my viewpoint on reflexive vs. pronominal usage, I guess. - 0074b507, Oct 2, 2011

My answer was for the "narrow" meaning of reflexive. - 0074b507, Oct 2, 2011

Are you coming on to me? - jeezzle, Oct 2, 2011

Answer 5

Usually when you are the one doing the smiling, just smiling (intransitive), it is sonreirse.

When you smile at someone, or someone smiles at you or someone else, (transitive), sonreír would be used.

Real SPanish speakers, please confirm!

Our dictionary doesn't list sonreír as a transtive verb. - 0074b507, Oct 2, 2011

Well, there you go. - Jeremias, Oct 2, 2011

Answer 6

In English we say "I smiled to myself " when we are talking to some one. but it seem s that in Spanish we find this expression only in literature and not in normal conversation.

The English phrase suggests that the smile was internal (i.e. not visible to others). I don't think that is the case in Spanish. - samdie, Oct 2, 2011

Answer 7

Estoy de acuerdo con Jeezle - I did find this comment that I found interesting from a native Spanish speaker

For me, "sonreírse" means not only that someone is smiling but that he/she has some kind of hidden reason for that, as if he/she knew something that he/she is not saying or showing...