Problems with 'Ir'

Question

Hola Amigos

Tengo una problema

I am learning Spanish using a book and I have hit something that is not quite clear.

I am currently doing translation exercises, and I need to translate:

'We are going to sell the car'.

I would have translated this as:

'Estamos yendo a vender el auto'

However, the book suggests the translation is:

'Vamos a vender el auto'.

I would understand the book's translation as the future tense. 'We will sell the car in the future'. However, the English phrase 'we are going to sell the car' could suggest that we are currently actively on our way to sell the car OR that we will sell the car in the future.

Could the phrase 'vamos a vender el auto' be used in both the present active tense (unsure of the actual name) AND the future tense as we would use the phrase in English. Or is it a case of an unclear request from the book's authors and that both translations are correct but mean different things?

Gracias chicos!

Tengo "un" problema. Problema es masculino. - Goyo, Aug 28, 2011

The 'a' threw me. Thanks. - Cheesus, Aug 28, 2011

Answer 1

I would have translated this as:

'Estamos yendo a vender el auto'

A literal translation won't work here. Where English uses "I am going to + inf.", in Spanish is "I go to + inf." You can't expect Spanish to make sense using your English grammar.

Could the phrase 'vamos a vender el auto' be used in both the present active tense (unsure of the actual name) AND the future tense as we would use the phrase in English. Or is it a case of an unclear request from the book's authors and that both translations are correct but mean different things?

"Vamos a vender el auto" means that you are considering selling your car if nothing unexpected happens, so it implicitly refers to a potential future event. The future tense is very unusual here, because it would be like "I will be going to sell the car" in English, where you expect to reach a future moment when you will say "I am going to sell the car", even later in the future.

The author of the book has found the best translation to convey the exact same meaning, at the expense of avoiding a literal translation, which would show the exact words used, but it would also sound awkward or simply wrong.

Answer 2

Estoy yendo a (noun)= I am going to (a location). . .and you are in the process of going there

Lorenzo9, "Estoy yendo" is only used by a marginal percentage of Spanish native speakers, and only in areas with strong USA influence. Elsewhere, it is not used, and it is considered wrong. People say:

Voy (de camino) a tu casa

when we are going to someone's house.

Answer 3

Should I also avoid using a phrase such as 'estoy aprendiendo español', or do the grammatical pitfalls of 'ando' and 'iendo' only apply to 'Ir'?

It is hard to explain how this works in just a few words, because there is no simple rule to explaining this in English or Spanish, but in general, any ongoing activity that has already started, where some progress is being made as time passes, pictured at some stage of its development, is likely to require these progressive forms, so "Estoy aprendiendo español" is perfect, but "Estudio español" works too from a different perspective, since the latter does not consider any progression. Verbs like "ir", "venir", "regresar" and "volver" are rarely used in (non habitual) progressive constructions. If you think of it, when you say "He's gone home", he has left the room, but we don't know whether he has or hasn't reached his house, and yet, "gone" indicates a complete event. Compare that behaviour with "take a shower", where you don't say "He's taken a shower" only because you don't know whether he is still inside or not. Also, you don't normally ask "Is he still going home?" (I think -correct me if I'm wrong) to find out whether he is still on his way, because there is no progression in the verb "to go". In English you use this "going" in English because your language focuses on continuity, not progression, so it makes sense in English, but not in Spanish.

Why can you say "I am wearing trousers", using present continuous, but not "I am having trousers on", if both mean the same? This whole think about progressive constructions is tricky, I'm telling you.

Ah, most words ending in -ema are masculine: un problema.

This is indeed tricky, but I am grateful for the effort you have put into explaining it to me. I think I am beginning to learn something about the English language as well!! - Cheesus, Aug 28, 2011

Answer 4

I have noticed here in Bolivia that Bolivians tend to use the "voy a.."va a" "van a" vamos a" forms when they could easily have used the simple future..

That's because Spanish does not use the future tense like you do in English, so they were probably choosing the right tool for the job. The so-called future tense is the least common alternative for the future (behind even the present tense), but that's because the name of the tenses are extremely misleading, and people believe that something called future tense should be used for the future. Big mistake.

Right - and apart from the 4 "will" future forms in English there are 4 other future forms - not bad for a language that "does not have a pure future tense" - ian-hill, Aug 28, 2011

Answer 5

how do you indicate that you are currently on your way to sell the car?

Using present tense: "Vendo mi coche", meaning that my car is on sale.

Doesn't 'yendo' specifically exist to have some form of 'estar' put in front of it? This is now certainly confusing me.

The construction "Voy a + inf." equivalent to "I am going to + inf." in Spanish just does not use "going", because our languages are different. I won't go into the details of why each language has chosen a different route to express the same thing, but "yendo" in Spanish expresses progressive aspect, and "ir" is incompatible with progressive aspect in most of its uses, unless you use a reiterative interpretation, which is out of the question here. Spanish says "voy" where English says "I am going".

Answer 6

This isn't very complicated:

Voy a (infinitive) = I am going to (do something)

Estoy yendo a (noun)= I am going to (a location). . .and you are in the process of going there

Answer 7

Estoy yendo a (noun)= I am going to (a location). . .and you are in the process of going there

Lorenzo9, "Estoy yendo" is only used by a marginal percentage of Spanish native speakers, and only in areas with strong USA influence. Elsewhere, it is not used, and it is considered wrong. People say:

Voy (de camino) a tu casa

when we are going to someone's house.

I believe this is where my confusion arose. I have noticed that Lorenzo is in Ecuador. Ecuador is where i began to learn Spanish, and I have since continued with that Latin American feel to my studies.

If only a multilateral consensus could be reached on a grammatical format for the Spanish language (I am sure you may echo my sentiments regarding English!)

Even in Ecuador I've never heard anyone say "estoy yendo", I was just saying what I thought it meant based on the rules of grammar as I know them. - lorenzo9, Aug 29, 2011

Answer 8

So if 'vamos a vender el auto' indicates that you are going to sell the car at some point in the future (I am unsure of how 'considering' is implied in that sentence), how do you indicate that you are currently on your way to sell the car?

The same way. Vamos a vender el auto.

Doesn't 'yendo' specifically exist to have some form of 'estar' put in front of it? This is now certainly confusing me.

I have never heard "estamos yendo + infinitivo" used in any context. You will be better off learning how Spanish speakers say things than to try to justify unusual constructs. I'm not saying it's wrong, just not the norm.

So "vamos yendo a la playa" (edit - Goyo pointed out I messed up here. It should have read 'estamos yendo a la playa' I think I may have done too much Spanish today and my brain is fused. My mistake!) would be correct because there is no verb following 'yendo'? Would that indicate that we are actively or imminently going to the beach rather than further into the future?

On the other hand, 'vamos a vender el auto' is similar to the English 'I am going to sell the car' in the sense that both can mean at some point in the future or currently actively doing it?

Nooo. Vamos yendo? That would be- "We are going going" or something like that. It makes no sense. - Goyo, Aug 28, 2011

Apologies, Goyo. I meant 'estamos yendo a la playa'. Is that correct? - Cheesus, Aug 28, 2011

'estamos yendo a la playa' = we are going to the beach B U T does not always mean we are doing it now. If we meant that we would probably say " We are on our way to the beach" - ian-hill, Aug 28, 2011

"Estamos en nuestro camino a la playa" - Not sure if this form is ever used though in Spanish. - ian-hill, Aug 28, 2011

Answer 9

As Lorenzo said it is not so complicated.

One difference is what the following "imply" in English more than they do in Spanish.

"I will sell my car". is a prediction not yet an actual plan.(simple future) "Venderé mi choche.

"I am going to sell my car" = this is a plan I have already made as I speak. "Voy a vender mi coche"

I have noticed here in Bolivia that Bolivians tend to use the "voy a.."va a" "van a" vamos a" forms when they could easily have used the simple future..

Note

For those learning English - we never say "I am going to go to london" but just "I am going to London"

nor do we say "I am going to come to Madrid" but just " I am coming to Madrid" -

Perfectly put, Ian, in the most succinct style -- wouldn't expect anything less from you! - territurtle, Aug 28, 2011

Answer 10

I think what I have learned from this is that I need to gain a better theoretical understanding of the grammatical differences between Spanish and English. I am certainly not a linguist: I prefer the political economy and social philosophy However, I now have a burning desire to gain a reasonable level of fluency in Spanish and I'll be dammed if a little thing like a lack of linguistic capacity is going to stop me!

Thanks to everyone who has made an effort to help me out! (Particularly Lazarus y Territurtle)

Muchos gracias! Cheesus

Thank Lazarus, he's the Grammar God on this site!! ;-) - territurtle, Aug 28, 2011

Answer 11

how do you indicate that you are currently on your way to sell the car?

Using present tense: "Vendo mi coche", meaning that my car is on sale.

Doesn't 'yendo' specifically exist to have some form of 'estar' put in front of it? This is now certainly confusing me.

The construction "Voy a + inf." equivalent to "I am going to + inf." in Spanish just does not use "going", because our languages are different. I won't go into the details of why each language has chosen a different route to express the same thing, but "yendo" in Spanish expresses progressive aspect, and "ir" is incompatible with progressive aspect in most of its uses, unless you use a reiterative interpretation, which is out of the question here. Spanish says "voy" where English says "I am going"

Thanks.

So I will put 'yendo' out of my mind for now until I get a better grasp of the basics.

Should I also avoid using a phrase such as 'estoy aprendiendo español', or do the grammatical pitfalls of 'ando' and 'iendo' only apply to 'Ir'?

Answer 12

Yes, yendo is meant to have "estar" put in front of it.

If you want to say "I'm (We're) going to sell the car tomorrow", you would use "Voy (Vamos) a vender el coche mañana."

If you wanted to specifically imply that at that moment you are currently on your way to sell the car, I guess you could use "estamos yendo", but I've never seen "yendo" used like that in all of my Spanish. I would say "Vamos a al tiendo para vender el coche" I'm going to the store to sell the car

Okaaaaay. I am approaching an understanding (not quite there yet). Could you give me an example of where 'estamos yendo' would be grammatically correct?

Also, isn't "Vamos a al tiendo para vender el coche" rather long winded? Or is that how a native Spanish Speaker would talk?

Answer 13

So if 'vamos a vender el auto' indicates that you are going to sell the car at some point in the future (I am unsure of how 'considering' is implied in that sentence), how do you indicate that you are currently on your way to sell the car?

Doesn't 'yendo' specifically exist to have some form of 'estar' put in front of it? This is now certainly confusing me.

Yes, yendo is meant to have "estar" put in front of it.

If you want to say "I'm (We're) going to sell the car tomorrow", you would use "Voy (Vamos) a vender el coche mañana."

If you wanted to specifically imply that at that moment you are currently on your way to sell the car, I guess you could use "estamos yendo", but I've never seen "yendo" used like that in all of my Spanish. I would say "Vamos a al tiendo para vender el coche" I'm going to the store to sell the car

Answer 14

So if 'vamos a vender el auto' indicates that you are going to sell the car at some >point in the future (I am unsure of how 'considering' is implied in that sentence), how >do you indicate that you are currently on your way to sell the car?

The same way. Vamos a vender el auto.

Doesn't 'yendo' specifically exist to have some form of 'estar' put in front of it? This is >now certainly confusing me.

I have never heard "estamos yendo + infinitivo" used in any context. You will be better off learning how Spanish speakers say things than to try to justify unusual constructs. I'm not saying it's wrong, just not the norm.

Answer 15

So if 'vamos a vender el auto' indicates that you are going to sell the car at some point in the future (I am unsure of how 'considering' is implied in that sentence), how do you indicate that you are currently on your way to sell the car?

Doesn't 'yendo' specifically exist to have some form of 'estar' put in front of it? This is now certainly confusing me.

If I understand you correctly, the confusion comes from contrasting: (1) "I will be going (tomorrow or some other time in the future) to sell the car." and; (2) "I am going (along this particular road, for example, to indicate you are presently engaged in process/motion)* to sell the car."

Vamos = we go/are going

So, "Vamos a vender el auto." can be understood to mean: (1) We are presently traveling on our way to sell the car." and; (2) We have decided/are inclined to sell the car sometime in the immediate future.

(1) Think if you are sitting in my car traveling down a road with me, and you ask "Where are we going." and I answer: "We are going to sell the car." Absolutely present tense, as we are in the process of "going," i.e., moving. However, we have not yet sold the car.

(2) Now, imagine you are sitting on my front porch with me and looking at my old car and I've been talking about a new car I intend to buy. So you ask me, "What are you going to do with your old car." and; I answer "We are going to sell the car." Same identical sentence in English, but this one indicates the intention to do something in the indefinite future -- either immediately or at some later date.

Now in Spanish "Vamos a vender el auto." is somewhere between (1) and (2), because (2) in English it could mean "in six months after my wife gets her new car."

But if I understand correctly, Lazarus was stressing you would NOT use the future tense either while traveling in the car, or when standing in front of the car with keys in hand before you make the trip to the car dealer. Even though standing there with keys in hand is technically future tense, it only refers to an immediate future intention which will take place baring an automobile accident, me having a heart attack on the way to the car dealer, etc.

Instead you would use the special Spanish construction "Vamos a vender el auto." So although it is referring to an action which has not been completed (implied future), it can be used while we are in the car together because, baring some unforeseen event, or sudden change of mind, the intention is to sell the car at the end of the trip.

If however, you were thinking of selling your car after your wife gets her's, then the future tense could be used in Spanish; whereas the English usage of "I am going to sell the car ..." is still acceptable, it actually is being used in a true future tense. So Spanish would no longer allow you to use the "Vamos a vender el auto." construction.

Splitting hairs finer than I just have in this post would require either: an almost native speaker fluency of Spanish; or a native speaker to give you the correct response in a given situation -- which would come somewhere between the two ways "I am going ..." is used in English.

This is certainly requiring some brain power. I am unable to concentrate at the minute so I will come back to this tomorrow. However, I am very grateful for the time and effort you have put into this response. - Cheesus, Aug 28, 2011