The 'se' again

Question

In a previous thread. the question was how to say "the oats are not yet ripe for harvesting? They are not ready yet."

My answer was "Todavía las avenas están verdes para cosecharlas" which is most probably very wrong, if it is, please tell me why.

Then a native speaker gave this answer..

"La avena todavía no está lista para cosecharse."

What's the 'se' doing at the end of the infinitive, and why is the verb pronominal when the subject is different from the object.

Thanks.

Don't confuse pronominal (used with a reflexive pronoun) with reflexive use (where the subject/object are the same). There are other pronominal uses than to be reflexive. - 0074b507, Aug 21, 2011

This es an example of the passive voice - I don't think that's the same as pronomial. - Jeremias, Aug 21, 2011

Answer 1

My answer was "Todavía las avenas están verdes para cosecharlas" which is most probably very wrong, if it is, please tell me why.

It should be "La avena está verde", and "cosecharlas" is actually correct, but we need to make an assumption about who is going to do the work if this information is not provided.

"La avena todavía no está lista para cosecharse."

This is also right, but here the passive interpretation means that whoever can do the job is not the issue, but the unsuitability of the oats harvest so soon.

Thanks Lazarus! - pacofinkler, Aug 21, 2011

Thank you, Lazarus. - SpanishPal, Aug 21, 2011

Answer 2

delete-already explained more coherently

I can think of a two viewpoints to explain that from:

To make cosechar function passively rather than actively

To change it from transitive to intransitive usage

Passive (with se) vs active voice (without se)

Are the oats doing the action of the verb (active voice) or being acted upon by the verb (passive voice)? They are being harvested; not harvesting something. We have passive voice.

The se is attached to cosechar as a pronominal usage to express passive voice.

To "detransitize" the verb:

transitive means that something is being harvested (there is a d.o.) Something sank the boat (from our classic discussion on the uses of se by Lazarus) The verb has a d.o. ...the boat. Something is the doer (subject) or agent.

intransitive means that there is no direct object. The boat sinks. (no d.o. and the subject/agent is supressed.

So you could say the the se following the verb is there as a pronominal usage to detransitize the verb. (Suppresses the agent/doer and removes the d.o.)

Ask you can see passive voice utilizes an intransitive sentence.

This article might help you understand the difference between pronominal and reflexive. Reflexive usage is just one type of pronominal usage.

• subject of sentence=avena
• object of verb (what is being harvested) =avena

Does that mean that the verb is being used reflexively?

Is the subject of the verb performing some action on the object that is being reflected back onto the subject=reflexive usage (subject/object the same)

No, because the subject is not the doer of the verb's action as well as the receiver of the verb's action (it is not active voice). Therefore, this is not reflexive. In other words avena may be the subject of the sentence, but it is not the subject of the verb cosechar.

Thanks, Qfreed - SpanishPal, Aug 21, 2011

Answer 3

"La avena todavía no está lista para cosecharse."

The "se" is used here because "cosechar" is in passive voice: "...... the oats are ready to be harvested."

That crossed my mind, then I thought the passive 'se' couldn't possibly be attached to the infinitive. Thanks, Julian - SpanishPal, Aug 21, 2011

nice ... I didn't realise that it could be like that. - dewclaw, Aug 21, 2011

Answer 4

Except for the new genetically modified oats which pick themselves as a labor saving innovation.

To Funny Jeremias! - pacofinkler, Aug 21, 2011

Answer 5

Hah! Thank you Julian! I could not explain it,but I knew it was correct. The "se" refers to the "avena"

"Se" has so many uses and I know only a few.