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Ways of [removed]again)

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Was talking to my native Spanish fiancee again, and got another correction in my Spanish which she can't seem to explain to me. I said "No puedes ayudar otros hasta puedes ayudar tu mismo". She corrected me with: "No puedes ayudar a otros hasta que puedas ayudarte a ti mismo". Here's what confuses me: the addition of "a" between "ayudar" and "otros", the addition of "que", and the seemingly redundant use of "ayudarTE" when "a ti" already implies who the help is going to. I asked her if all of this corrections were needed, and she said "yes". I thought about it for quite a while, and I can't for the life of me figure out why the hell these modifications were "needed". I could understand if it were just another way to say the same thing, but they're ALL needed to be proper? ....(if you can't tell already, I'm really getting annoyed)

1817 views
updated Aug 15, 2011
edited by ArchLich
posted by ArchLich

2 Answers

4
votes

I may hit on some things here that you didn't explicitly ask on, but it's to build to a point, so please bear with me! tongue laugh

The "a" before "otros" is what is called the "personal 'a'." It's used, for the most part, before people, pets, and pronouns acting as objects (notice the "person" part of the personal "a"). In your example, "otros" is referring to a group of people, so the personal "a" is used.

The connecting "que" is used in Spanish a lot more frequently than in English, and is usually required to be correct. In English I could say "I like the sandwiches you make me" or "I like the sandwiches that you make me." Spanish requires the "that" between the clauses. However, the "que" here is also used (possibly even moreso) because "hasta" is a preposition, and conjugated verbs never directly follow prepositions. If "que" weren't in the sentence, you'd need to have an infinitive after it, which wouldn't allow you to express what you needed to.

"Puedes" must be "puedas" (which is subjunctive) because it's an expected action (after "until"). "Hasta que" almost if not always triggers the subjunctive.

The personal "a" appears again before the "tú" of "tú mismo" because "tú" is a person. It's also a preposition so it must be followed by "ti" and not "tú." As such, "a ti mismo" pretty much needs to have a "te" before it for emphasis. Without it, it would sound something like this in English: "until you can help you." It's not entirely wrong, but it sounds really weird. The presence of both "te" and "a ti mismo" renders something like "until you can help yourself" in English. Think of it as "having enough 'you' " in the sentence. There needs to be enough "you" in the sentence to make the juxtaposition clear. wink

updated Aug 15, 2011
edited by freeze10108
posted by freeze10108
I understood everything except this: the word "mismo" = "self", therefore "a ti mismo" alone implies "yourself", so I'm still not understanding why "te" is needed. - ArchLich, Aug 15, 2011
well you say it in English don't you? it would sound pretty funny if you just said 'until can help yourself' :) The 'te' is the equivalent of our 'you' you can help yourself - Kiwi-Girl, Aug 15, 2011
I'm finding it difficult to explain why you need it without reaching into theories that might be wrong. How about "a ti mismo" is only emphatic and can't serve as an object? (I'm not sure if it's correct, but it seems to be that way, at least on Google.) - freeze10108, Aug 15, 2011
And that seems to have caused disharmony with how I reasoned the "a" being personal. - freeze10108, Aug 15, 2011
Okay, maybe "a ti mismo" can't stand as an object _on its own_. - freeze10108, Aug 15, 2011
@kiwi "puedes" implies "you can" already, therefore "hasta que puedes ayudar a ti mismo" would not mean "until can help yourself". @freeze there seems to be a lot of illogical things about spanish that simply can't be explained to make sense :-/ - ArchLich, Aug 15, 2011
1
vote

delete-already answered.

The 1st "a" is the personal "a".

The que is needed to introduce the the noun clause that is the object of the prepositon hasta...until that you can help yourself. (we commonly omit the that in English)

The 2nd "a" is just a preposition forming the prepositonal phrase a ti mismo which provide emphasis for "te". The entire prepostional phrase is optional and could be omitted.

hasta que phrases serve as time adverbs. If it refers to an anticipated action or event (as in your example) what follows takes the subjunctive mood. If what follows is viewed as a completed or habitual action or event it takes the indicative mood.

updated Aug 15, 2011
edited by 0074b507
posted by 0074b507
I don't know why you think your answer needs to be deleted; different perspectives are always good when one is trying to learn something. :-) - freeze10108, Aug 15, 2011
Indeed, your answer helped, I didn't know "a ti mismo" wasn't needed, that kinda helps a bit, althoug is still strange when compared to the english need for "self" to be included. - ArchLich, Aug 15, 2011