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se puedan contratar ...Why use se?

se puedan contratar ...Why use se?

5
votes

...3 millones de doláres que es la cantidad para que se puedan contratar nuevos maestros, para que se puedan implemetar el complemento nutricional en las escuelas...

Why do you say "se" puedan and not just puedan here????

I can't understand it at all.

oh oh

Gracias!!!!!!!

2136 views
updated Aug 13, 2011
edited by dewclaw
posted by dewclaw
implementar - 0074b507, Aug 12, 2011

9 Answers

3
votes

The pronoun "se" is broadly used to form impersonal and passive sentences in Spanish, as in the following sentences:

Se vende esta casa.

Se regalan gatos.

In this sentences the pronoun "se" is the subject. Someone sells his/her home; someone gives away pussycats.

In your example

...para que se puedan contratar nuevos maestros, para que se pueda implemetar el complemento nutricional en las escuelas...

"se" could be the State, the Government, the Ministry of Education...

If you omit the pronoun, and you just say:

...para que puedan contratar nuevos maestros, para que puedan implemetar el complemento nutricional en las escuelas...

then the subject would be implicitly "ellos":

...para que (ellos) puedan contratar nuevos maestros, para que (ellos) puedan implemetar el complemento nutricional en las escuelas...

Then the reader should have to know who "ellos" are.

I hope you can understand my English. grin

updated Aug 12, 2011
edited by LuisCache
posted by LuisCache
This answer is the best. thank you. it's really clear! - dewclaw, Aug 12, 2011
Thank you! - LuisCache, Aug 12, 2011
no no, thank you! haha - dewclaw, Aug 12, 2011
6
votes

...3 millones de doláres que es la cantidad para que se puedan contratar nuevos maestros, para que se puedan implemetar el complemeto nutricional en las escuelas...

The way I read this is, literally, "3 million dollars that is the amount in order that new teachers can be hired, in order that the complemeto nutricional (I am not sure what that is!) in the schools can be implemented."

If this is correct, the use of se puedan is the use of the passive (I guess technicaqlly the impersonal) voice.

updated Aug 12, 2011
edited by Jeremias
posted by Jeremias
That's a good observation...passive...hm, :) - dewclaw, Aug 11, 2011
4
votes

Because the narrator is talking in third person. He's talking in a polite form.

But, you are right, the phrase doesn't miss the meaning if you eliminate the word "se".

Hope it was helpful.

updated Aug 13, 2011
edited by Animalescus
posted by Animalescus
Helpful yup... but how do you know when you can or can't use se in this context? - dewclaw, Aug 11, 2011
**Because** the narrator **is** talking in the third person. He's talking in a polite form. - SonrisaDelSol, Aug 11, 2011
Hope **it** was helpful. - SonrisaDelSol, Aug 11, 2011
Oh my foodness. Sorry for not correcting you. I'm so tired I hardly noticed. - dewclaw, Aug 11, 2011
Thanks Sonrisa - Animalescus, Aug 13, 2011
4
votes

...es la cantidad para que se puedan contratar...

Interestingly, that 'se' can be easily be removed without altering the message. With "puedan" alone, you could be either referring to a group in particular (those who contract) or achieve an impersonal effect by not referring to someone in particular, like when people say "one must do the right thing", where "one" is no one in particular. With "se puedan" you are creating an impersonal effect by using a passive-reflexive construction, like "can be contracted".

This coincidence wouldn't have happened with "... para que se pueda contratar a un maestro", because omitting 'se' would imply a specific third person; the impersonal construction in the third person mentioned above only words in plural.

updated Aug 12, 2011
posted by lazarus1907
So the Se in se puedan in passive - reflexive... I'm not sure I get the part where you say omitting the Se in se pueda would imply a specific 3rd person... - dewclaw, Aug 12, 2011
se pueda (singular) is impersonal (one can), drop the se and it is no longer impersonal (now it is he/she/it can). pueden (plural) can be impersonal "they" if you drop the se. - 0074b507, Aug 12, 2011
ooh yeah! - dewclaw, Aug 12, 2011
3
votes

Para que se puedan contratar = in order to be able .....

Para poderse + infinitive = in order to be able + infinitive

updated Aug 11, 2011
posted by SpanishPal
oh.. I love formulas :P - dewclaw, Aug 11, 2011
2
votes

I'm not sure I get the part where you say omitting the Se in se pueda would imply a specific 3rd person...

When someone knocks at the door, in Spanish we say:

[ellos] ¡Llaman a la puerta!

However, that "ellos" must be omitted, because we don't know whether it is a person, several people or anything. This sentence would be more like "The door is being knocked at" in terms of meaning (even though that's not a good translation), since the identity of whoever is behind the door is deliberately being ignored. Also:

[ellos] ¡Te llaman por teléfono!

You could have said something like "David te llama por teléfono", but if you don't know who is calling or you can't be bothered giving such details, you use the 3rd person plural (always without "ellos")... even if you know there is only one person on the other side of the line. People will interpret the sentence as "someone is calling", without making assumptions about how many. These constructions in the 3rd person plural can be considered as impersonal.

Now, add "ellos", and everybody will be wondering "They??? Who are they?". You can only say that if you are waiting for a group of people (say, some builders who are coming to do some repairs), so you know who these "ellos" are. This time the subject is clear.

On the other hand, "[él/ella] ¡Te llama por teléfono!" is not considered a generic reference, like it happens in plural. This sentence, whether you say "él/ella" or not, makes absolutely no sense unless you are expecting someone beforehand:

  • ¿Te acuerdas de Juan? Te llama por teléfono --> Context given: Juan is obviously calling.

  • Ella te llama por teléfono ---> ???? No context, so who on Earth is "ella"???

updated Aug 12, 2011
edited by lazarus1907
posted by lazarus1907
oh yeah. It makes me laugh how easy you make it :P thanks a million L - dewclaw, Aug 12, 2011
2
votes

I might be missing something here, because "para que se puedan contratar nuevos maestros..." doesn't look correct to me, although "para que se pueda contratar" and "para que puedan contratar" do.

If it is because the verb is contratarse (para que se puedan contratar = para que puedan contratarse), then it will make sense to me (although the meaning will change); but if it is just contratar, then I strongly believe it should be "se pueda," since this appears to me as an impersonal se construction that, as a rule, is always in 3rd person singular.

updated Aug 12, 2011
edited by Deanski
posted by Deanski
2
votes

believe it should be "se pueda," since this appears to me as an impersonal se construction that, as a rule.

Grammatically speaking, if there is no "a" before "maestros", el plural es lo correcto. Cambia el order de los sintagmas y fíjate:

...para que nuevos maestros se puedan contratar

...para que nuevos maestros se pueda contratar ???

"Nuevos maestros" is the subject of this passive reflexive. However, add "a", and the story change:

...para que a nuevos maestros se puedan contratar ????

...para que a nuevos maestros se los pueda contratar

Now "maestros" is the direct object, which is why that "los" suddenly becomes compulsory.

updated Aug 12, 2011
posted by lazarus1907
OK, so it is indeed contratarse. But I understand contratarse as something like to sign up for a contract/job, and contratar as to hire. Is it not the latter what the text intends to say, that 3 million is needed to *hire* the new teachers? - Deanski, Aug 12, 2011
Notice too that I actually said that "para que se puedan contratar nuevos maestros..." didn't look correct to me, and that is because I thought it didn't match the sentido of the phrase, that is, to hire new teachers. - Deanski, Aug 12, 2011
I don't think it is saying that 3 million is what the would be-teachers need so they can sign up for a job/contract. - Deanski, Aug 12, 2011
this is a bit complex for me with the "e los puedan contratar" etc.. hm - dewclaw, Aug 12, 2011
muchas gracias lazaruz - dewclaw, Aug 12, 2011
0
votes
updated Aug 12, 2011
posted by lorenzo9
thannk you lorenzo, that's very cool - dewclaw, Aug 12, 2011