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Why the subjunctive?

Why the subjunctive?

5
votes

Why is ocurrir used in the subjunctive in this case? I understand "aunque " is a signal to use the subjunctive, but in this case it seems weird to me. The US's credit rating was already downgraded (there is no speculation anymore and this isn't an expression of impersonal opinion.) Someone, help! smile

Las Bolsas firmaron otra sesión de pánico en la que el miedo y la volatilidad originaron el coctel explosivo perfecto para los desplomes. Aunque la mecha la encenderían de nuevo los rumores sobre una posible rebaja del rating de Francia, como ya ocurriera el viernes pasado con EE UU. Con ese antecedente, los bancos se hundieron y el Ibex perdió los 8.000 puntos al bajar el 5,49%.

3034 views
updated Aug 10, 2011
posted by Pauly_Glot

6 Answers

12
votes

Good question! The answer is: subjunctive should not be there. The -ra forms, like "ocurriera", were not subjunctive (but indicative) in Medieval Spanish, so "ocurriera" was actually used to mean "había ocurrido" (pluperfect indicative); by the 16th century this usage got lost, and "ocurriera" became a subjunctive form along with "ocurriese" (the traditional subjunctive form). In the 19th century, this extinct Medieval use was revived in literature (and later by the journalists) as a 'cool' ancient-sound style, even though grammars advise against its use, because it complicates a system that it is already complex enough with an element that it is not congruent with modern usage.

updated Aug 10, 2011
edited by lazarus1907
posted by lazarus1907
How many times have I heard that Spanish is "easy" ? - ian-hill, Aug 10, 2011
I never use these -ra forms like that. Never! - lazarus1907, Aug 10, 2011
@lazarus: now that i know, i wouldn't either because i doubt the average native has the information you have, so it would probably end up sounding like a mistake to them. thanks for the help buddy. - Pauly_Glot, Aug 10, 2011
Excellent explanation...I see this all of the time in Mexican literature, and it somewhat drives me nuts! :) - mountaingirl123, Aug 10, 2011
5
votes

If you don't mind me asking, how did you come across such information?

I've studied grammar in depth, including historical grammar and the evolution of Latin, so I know how these forms have evolved in time. This can be found in any serious academic grammar (not in the typical who are learning the basics of the language).

I, myself, am writing a grammar for learners of Spanish (which will take forever), and I dedicate a whole section just to explain this, but this section is for advanced students only.

updated Aug 10, 2011
edited by lazarus1907
posted by lazarus1907
that is great Lazarus. I would love to purchase your work whenever you finish it. it seems like it would be quite helpful. i've spent a lot of money on amazon buying grammar books that are poorly written and lack the depth you just shared with us. - Pauly_Glot, Aug 10, 2011
so speed it up! i dont have forever :) - Pauly_Glot, Aug 10, 2011
3
votes

For example, they misuse the conditional tense very, very frequently. Example: "... and I would caution the senator from New York that this issue has ..." - so why "would" he be saying something that he just now in fact has said?? Almost every sentence has the word "would" in it, and never for its correct meaning.

To me, such usage is simply a cut and dry case of "doublespeak."

Were I a bit more presumptuous, I would caution the Senator from New York that this issue has... (but of course, I am not so presumptuous)

If I were one for confrontation, I would caution the Senator from New York that this issue has... (but of course, I am not one for confrontation)

The entire charade reminds me of the technique used in the scene from Julius Caesar where Antony manipulates the crowd into changing their opinions of Caesar's murderers from that of adoration to outright contempt—you know, the bit about, "If it were my place, I would speak of the virtues of the noble Caesar and honor him in death; however, doing so would only besmirch the good names of Brutus and Cassius, an act I am not willing to make on account of the fact that, as we all know, "Brutus and Cassius are honorable men."

O masters, if I were disposed to stir
Your hearts and minds to mutiny and rage
,
I should do Brutus wrong, and Cassius wrong,
Who, you all know, are honourable men:
I will not do them wrong; I rather choose
To wrong the dead, to wrong myself and you,
Than I will wrong such honourable men.

updated Aug 10, 2011
posted by Izanoni1
Excellent. - --Mariana--, Aug 10, 2011
acertaste, maestro! - mountaingirl123, Aug 10, 2011
2
votes

This example reminds me of how any profession develops its own jargon, including use and misuse of grammar. For anyone who has listened or read transcripts of oratory in the U.S. Senate or House of Representatives, you'll understand what I mean.

For example, they misuse the conditional tense very, very frequently. Example: "... and I would caution the senator from New York that this issue has ..." - so why "would" he be saying something that he just now in fact has said?? Almost every sentence has the word "would" in it, and never for its correct meaning.

updated Aug 10, 2011
posted by pesta
I would increase your taxes... Hehehe - lazarus1907, Aug 10, 2011
The word would sows the seed of doubt that you are actually, directly confronting or threatening somebody? - Pablo-Peligroso, Aug 10, 2011
Ha! Yes, they would increase our taxes!!!! - mountaingirl123, Aug 10, 2011
1
vote

This example reminds me of how any profession develops its own jargon, including use and misuse of grammar. For anyone who has listened or read transcripts of oratory in the U.S. Senate or House of Representatives, you'll understand what I mean.

For example, they misuse the conditional tense very, very frequently. Example: "... and I would caution the senator from New York that this issue has ..." - so why "would" he be saying something that he just now in fact has said?? Almost every sentence has the word "would" in it, and never for its correct meaning.

Hehe. Your first mistake is thinking that elected officials are intelligent users of the language smile

Case in point - Dan Quayle misspells potato.

Also, why in the world would you be watching debates on the House floor when you could be watching Prime Minister's Questions! Not only are they more intelligent users of the language (not all, but most) it is soooo much more entertaining than debates on the House floor. It's a double whammy, as the British would say (that is what the British would say, right?) Hehe.

updated Aug 10, 2011
edited by Pauly_Glot
posted by Pauly_Glot
1
vote

Good question! The answer is: subjunctive should not be there. The -ra forms, like "ocurriera", were not subjunctive (but indicative) in Medieval Spanish, so "ocurriera" was actually used to mean "había ocurrido" (pluperfect indicative); by the 16th century this usage got lost, and "ocurriera" became a subjunctive form along with "ocurriese" (the traditional subjunctive form). In the 19th century, this extinct Medieval use was revived in literature (and later by the journalists) as a 'cool' ancient-sound style, even though grammars advise against its use.

Now that is an excellent answer. I wish I could vote twice. It has been bugging me so much reading these financial websites and seeing the subjunctive used instead of the pluperfect indicative, like you mentioned. I couldn't understand why, so I reviewed the subjunctive all over again (I guess something good did come out of it) and was still baffled. If you don't mind me asking, how did you come across such information?

updated Aug 10, 2011
posted by Pauly_Glot