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What determines gender in to whom one is speaking?

What determines gender in to whom one is speaking?

6
votes

The first example below ,le dije , 1st person preterite ,I said to him ,or told him.

This is understandable and self explanatory, but not the one below .

2 nd example ,le dijo, 3rd person preterite, she asked , or she said , what has

determined that it is she , why not he asked ? forgive me for being thick,

but I cannot find an explanation anywhere.

These are examples from the word of the day in the dictionary.

lo hizo al revés de como le dije -> he did the opposite of what I told him to

Lo hizo al revés de como le dijo. - He did the opposite of what she asked.

2282 views
updated Jul 31, 2011
edited by ray76
posted by ray76
she asked=3rd person, preterite - 0074b507, Jul 30, 2011
I would say that this is a good question about a language that places so much emphasis on correct gender. Sometimes it just is not obvious. - ian-hill, Jul 30, 2011

9 Answers

9
votes

The first example below ,le dije , 1st person preterite ,I said to him ,or told him.

The pronoun "le" does not specify gender; it could be "him", "her", and even "it".

Le dije algo a María -> her

Le dije algo a Carlos -> him

Le puse sal al arroz -> it

2 nd example ,le dijo, 2nd person preterite, she asked , or she said , what has determined that it is she , why not he asked ? forgive me for being thick,

A sentence like "Le dijo algo" is never uttered out of the blue, without context, because if someone did, you would end up with four different translations in English:

He said something to him

He said something to her

She said something to him

She said something to her

But again, no one dials someone's phone number and simply says "Le dijo algo" right away, without a "Hello!" first. In practice, those pronouns will be used in a situation or a conversation that will allow you to determine unequivocally who talked to whom. When you say in English "I invite you", do you mean "Te invito" (to one person) or "Les invito" (to more than one)? Because you can't translate that sentence into Spanish unless you know whether you mean "you" for one, or "you guys" for several, but the context normally provides this information. The same goes for "I saw them": did you see women? Men? Or both?

lo hizo al revés de como le dije -> he did the opposite of what I told him to

They have chosen "he" at random, because it could have been "she" as well. That's the problem when you translate sentences devoid of any context: you have to make random choices when contextual information is missing and the other language's morphology demands a distinction that the other language does not express formally.

Lo hizo al revés de como le dijo. - He did the opposite of what she asked.

Same thing: it could have been a "she".

updated Jul 31, 2011
edited by lazarus1907
posted by lazarus1907
very clear explanation there. - billygoat, Jul 30, 2011
Bravo lazarus! - foxluv, Jul 30, 2011
I agree Sir, but in my humble opinion the dictionary should state that " This sentence may mean either , she asked / or he asked , if in doubt use a pronoun " It had me thinking that there was a rule I had missed. - ray76, Jul 30, 2011
But thank you for the explanation ,it was thorough and concise. - ray76, Jul 30, 2011
2
votes

When you say in English "I invite you", do you mean "Te invito" (to one person) or "Les invito" (to two people), because you can't translate that sentence into Spanish unless you know whether you mean "you" for one, or "you guys" for several.

Not only does standard (modern) English fail to indicate number in this case but it also does not indicate the sex of the person(s) spoken to. Arabic, on the other hand has masculine and feminine (as well as singular/plural) forms for the 2nd person pronoun. American feminists who are so concerned about the gender bias represented by English grammar would, no doubt, hail this as evidence of the sensitivity displayed by men in the Arab-speaking world toward their womenfolk.

updated Jul 31, 2011
posted by samdie
Well said! I was tempted to extend the analogy to other languages too, but I didn't want to confuse people. - lazarus1907, Jul 30, 2011
I am quite convinced that these feminists that wish to revise English ane a) monolingual and b) know nothing of the history of thier own language. - samdie, Jul 31, 2011
2
votes

Yes, it is not very clear:

Lo hizo al revés de como le dijo.

This could mean:

  • He did the opposite of what she asked.

    -He did the opposite of what he asked.

    -He did the opposite of what you (formal) asked.

Hope this helps mate. Good to see you by. wink

updated Jul 31, 2011
posted by Dakie
Thank you too Dakie , and good to see you also. - ray76, Jul 30, 2011
dakie, good to see you around, not by, please , everybody, this is a native spanish speaker, correct his mistakes!!! - 00494d19, Jul 31, 2011
1
vote

to avoid ambiguity in the following sentence =

Lo hizo al revés de como le dijo. - He did the opposite of what she asked.

It could mean he / she asked therefore one could insert a personal pronoun ,

Not really, ray. Here we are talking about a random sentence, but in a normal conversation or text, context would make this perfectly clear. Only when this is not the case, would we use a personal pronoun.

updated Jul 31, 2011
posted by 00494d19
That is exactly what i mean , when it is given as an example in a dictionary there is no context , therefore it needs to be pointed out . In all other cases as you point out it is obvious. - ray76, Jul 31, 2011
I am not in a position to argue a case of grammar , but I am sure on this issue I would not be the first to be confused . i say this with the deepest respect. - ray76, Jul 31, 2011
1
vote

Thank you for all these wonderful answers which have made me realise that

I am not overly thick. Although I would like to see in future the dictionary saying ,

to avoid ambiguity in the following sentence =

Lo hizo al revés de como le dijo. - He did the opposite of what she asked.

It could mean he / she asked therefore one could insert a personal pronoun ,

Each answer was thorough and beneficial making it hard to accept one as being better than another .

updated Jul 31, 2011
posted by ray76
1
vote

Only context could tell you.

For example, let's say the whole conversation was as follows:

María mandó a Juan limpiar el baño, pero lo hizo al revés de como le dijo. Lo hizo más sucio.

(Translation: Maria told Juan to clean the bathroom, but he did the opposite of what she said. He made it dirtier.)

Now it's completely clear that dijo is "she said" and not "he said" because Maria is the one giving orders (saying stuff) and Juan is the one doing stuff.

updated Jul 30, 2011
posted by webdunce
Agreed dear friend , but this was written in the dictionary there was no context. - ray76, Jul 30, 2011
1
vote

How did you know that it wasn't it said? Gramatically that is a possibility, but common sense tells you that "it" normally does not speak (except ocassionally in children's stories). So, from context you rule out the "it"possibility which you would not do if the verb were, for example, to fall (caer). We often have to glean the subject from context.

Despite the "rule" here on this site that subject pronouns be avoided, this is exactly the situation where they are used to avoid ambiguity. Forget about explaining to whom it is being said. Use a subject pronoun to express the speaker subject (él o ella) if there is no context to tell you who said it.

Él lo hizo al revés de como ella le dijo.

You question is worded a bit confusingly. It asks about how to clarify to whom [le, the i.o.] the sentence is speaking, but then you examples and description talk about determining who is speaking (the subject). Is it él or ella dijo/hizo?

lo hizo al revés de como le dije -> he did the opposite of what I told him to

Lo hizo al revés de como le dijo. - He did the opposite of what she asked.

The 2nd sentence does not follow the paradigm:

1st sentence ...he did the opposite of what I told him

2nd sentence...he did the opposite of what I told her

This would examplify the ambiguity surrounding le. The given examples swtich from the ambiguity of le to the ambiguity of dijo. (at least, the English part does)

[Also how the English verb "asked" got involved in the translations eludes me. I see neither pedir nor preguntar in the Spanish.]

updated Jul 30, 2011
edited by 0074b507
posted by 0074b507
Thank you that has not only made it clear but it was my thought process also that a personal pronoun was necessary here. - ray76, Jul 30, 2011
1
vote

As said above, it remains ambiguous unless the context makes it obvious or more commonly, a él, a ella, o a [Name] is used to clarify. The one thing that I wanted to add and although not grammatically correct I suppose, I find it extremely common where I live.

Le dije ---> La dije ---> I told her Le dije ---> Lo dije ---> I told him

While incorrect, it has been adapted by literally everywhere that I know and I now find myself using it just because it is faster and clearer. I've always thought language is constantly changing but if you don't like it, at least you'll be familiar with it if you hear it.

updated Jul 30, 2011
edited by bafalck
posted by bafalck
1
vote

There's no way to tell from just le dijo whether it's a he or a she that was spoken to, but usually this is clear from the context of the story. If this is not the case and it's still important know that it was said to the woman then you should add a ella or a Maria (if that's her name) to avoid ambiguity.

Le dijo a ella - You (formal) told her

updated Jul 30, 2011
edited by S1r_Wakka
posted by S1r_Wakka
Thank you , so I have not missed an important lesson then . - ray76, Jul 30, 2011