Usage of "haber" and "-ido"/"ado"

Question

Foxluv actually brought this up as a sidenote in a different thread, but I did not see any responses to that part of the post. So, I am asking here.

I thought that in order to use the past participles "-ado" and "-ido", the conjugated form of "haber" was required to precede the verb. Is this only true part of the time?

Update: Let me clarify, can the "ido/ado" endings be used without any form of "haber" preceding it?

El zorro fue atrapado en la trampa

Why would "atrapado" be used in the place of "atrapó"?

Answer 1

Grammar is far from my strong point, but I'll give it the old college try.

There is no rule that says you have to use haber with the participle of a verb. You can use participles without haber.

The participle (salido, confudido, ido) never changes regardless of the verb tense.

Here are some examples that do not use the verb haber.

Estoy confundido - I'm confused.

Estoy perdido - I'm lost.

La puerta esta abierta - The door is open.

Haber comes in when you start talking about things that you have, will have, or had done. These are the present perfect, past perfect, etc. These tenses do require the use of haber.

I hope this helps.

Okay... I think I am beginning to see. I have heard of confundido & perdido. I knew "haber" came into play with the perfect tense in concept, though I would not have remembered offhand that it was the perfect tense. - danrivera, Jun 18, 2011

I guess my question is still why the participle can be used rather than the preterite, for example. - danrivera, Jun 18, 2011

Hmm, in your example, "I am confused", I can see where the preterite would not be accurate. - danrivera, Jun 18, 2011

Okay, so the participle is used in the above situation, where preterite is not desired, and the meaning is not intended to be in the perfect tense. - danrivera, Jun 18, 2011

This makes perfect sense. Now I wonder where I got the idea from that haber was required... Oh well. Thanks! - danrivera, Jun 18, 2011

:) you got your answers, that's what counts. - chileno, Jun 19, 2011

the past participals in the above examples are functioning as adjectives to nouns whereas in the perfect tenses they are not - HotRocks, Jul 16, 2017

Answer 2

Will you illustrate a bit for context?

Please.

I have updated the question to better reflect what I am asking for. - danrivera, Jun 18, 2011

Answer 3

El zorro fue atrapado en la trampa

This is true passive voice (as opposed to passive SE).

The pattern is conjugated form of ser + past participle.

Passive SE is limited in that the agent may not be named. True passive allows (but does not require) the agent to be named. True passive is more common in literature and newspapers than in conversation.

Spanish pattern: subject + ser (conjugated) + past participle [+ por + agent]

English pattern: subject + be (conjugated) + past participle [+ by + agent]

True Passive:

The bridge was built [by the workers] = El puente fue construido [por los trabajadores].

.

Passive SE

The bridge was built = El puente se construyó.

.

Note: stuff in [ ] is optional.

Also, in true passive, the past participle must match the subject in number and gender... - webdunce, Jun 18, 2011

Ex: Las mujeres fueron servidas por las criadas (The women were served by the maids). - webdunce, Jun 18, 2011

Answer 4

As with any verb, haber can take the infinitive form when paired with a hepling verb, but can also be conjugated. More often than it is with past and subjunctive. Fun stuff.

Si yo hubiera ido a la cena contigo, no pudiera haber ido al cine.

If I had gone to the dinner with you, I would not have been able to go to the movies.

I do not recommend saying this to your novia.

That one I would translate is as "...no hubiera podido haber ido al cine" o "..no hubiera sido capaz de ir al cine" :) - chileno, Jun 18, 2011

I updated the question to show that I am asking for a situation where "haber" is not used. - danrivera, Jun 18, 2011

Yea, chileno, I guess what wrote was "i could not have gone"...oops. Anyway I missed the point of the question anyway. - shakedowndave, Jun 18, 2011

Answer 5

See my post right above yours.

Yes, I did find it. Your post just beat mine. Thanks! - danrivera, Jun 18, 2011

Answer 6

In the answers given so far, "haber" has always preceded the verb. This may be because I did not clearly compose my question.

In any case, I am asking if it is permissible for "haber" to be omitted when a verb ends in "ado/ido".

Answer 7

This may not be exactly perfect, but the sentence below might give a couple of examples where one might do such a thing...

It turns out that to have gone there was one of the worst things a man could have done.

Resultó que haber ido allí fue una de las peores cosas que un hombre podría haber hecho.

Mostly, I'm not sure about the conjugation of podría in my example. There may be other errors, too, though. - webdunce, Jun 18, 2011

I am sorry for the confusion, but I would like to know when "haber" is allowed to be omitted. - danrivera, Jun 18, 2011