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Dear English,

Dear English,

3
votes

Can you please come up with a gender neutral third-person pronoun ASAP? It's kind of embarrassing. Thank you for your cooperation in advance....

Food for thought:

A person was down at the river bank withdrawing some polliwogs for eir froggery, when ey heard branches snapping nearby, and saw a creature creeping towards em from out of the forest. Its eyes had a gleam in them that made em think of all the fierceness of a salad, its nose resembled asparagus, its skin was white and bumpy like cauliflower. Ey fell backward in terror, and it stopped, a monstrous menacing mound of mobile vegetables. More crashings were heard from the forest, and two more creatures appeared above em on either side. The first creature spoke, in a quiet voice, and its breath smelled of root-beer floats and anise. "One should not take the wogs from the river, no no no little meatling. For they are pretty, and we likes to watch them." Another of the creatures spoke, saying "You would be wise to put them back, tiny tasty meatling, so that we doesn't have to savage you." With that, they raised their massive arms, each covered with wriggling things like grated carrots gone mad. Ey was indignant, feeling the polliwogs to be rightfully eirs, but under the circumstances ey was not inclined to debate the issue. "No, no!" ey cried, "I'll put them back! I'll put them back!" Scrambling over to the water's edge, ey carefully deposited each one of them. "Yessssss...." they said, their voices starting as whispers and ending in roars, "YEEESSSSSSSSSS!!!! Bwahahahahahahahaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!"

3045 views
updated Jun 14, 2011
edited by la-araña-discoteca
posted by la-araña-discoteca
The words in bold type are suggestions for an English 3rd person pronoun... in case anyone was confused - la-araña-discoteca, Jun 12, 2011
Not confused at all - just put "th" in front of each of them. - ian-hill, Jun 12, 2011
But the English is lousy. - ian-hill, Jun 12, 2011
Oh ian, putting "th" in front of each of them does not work. try the first sentence and you will see : D - la-araña-discoteca, Jun 12, 2011
Yes it does - because we don't know if the person is male or female. - ian-hill, Jun 12, 2011
"su" doesn't work either. - ian-hill, Jun 12, 2011
It's one person! "Their" refers to more than one person! what a load of cobblers ian :) - la-araña-discoteca, Jun 12, 2011
I give up ! - ian-hill, Jun 12, 2011
I feel your pain Ian lol don't worry you haven't lost your marbles je je :) - Kiwi-Girl, Jun 13, 2011

11 Answers

1
vote

On the contrary, if Spanish could come up with a gender-specific third person possessive pronoun, it would be nice wink

But I see what you mean, they, them, their, and theirs is starting to act like that.

updated Jun 13, 2011
posted by Felixlynx
Noo!! You guys got it right! We got it wrong! - la-araña-discoteca, Jun 12, 2011
but nice thought :)) - la-araña-discoteca, Jun 12, 2011
then please explain :D - Felixlynx, Jun 12, 2011
Not "starting to act like that" - been like that since I don't know when. - ian-hill, Jun 12, 2011
Since women didn't have the right to vote and got paid a fraction of a males salary. And again, them, their, etc does not work with a singular pronoun! please refer to example below.... - la-araña-discoteca, Jun 12, 2011
1
vote

So, in Spanish, if the doctor's gender is not known, I wonder if Spanish speakers tend to say...

Si el doctor llama, dile que le llamaré más tarde.

...or...

Si la doctora llama, dile que le llamaré más tarde.

updated Jun 13, 2011
posted by webdunce
They say médico. - lorenzo9, Jun 13, 2011
So, then, would they tend to say "el médico" or "la médico"? - webdunce, Jun 13, 2011
My point is that Spanish has gender considerations at its very heart, despite having pronouns like su and le. And they will necessarily need to make assumptions about gender, too...just the gender appears in the nouns instead of the pronouns. - webdunce, Jun 13, 2011
Of course, they also have LO and LA for a great many situations. - webdunce, Jun 13, 2011
El médico. . . - lorenzo9, Jun 13, 2011
great point webdunce. very very goood input - la-araña-discoteca, Jun 13, 2011
1
vote

And now, for my essay...

Where I live (the southeastern USA), they has been a gender-neutral (or more-likely, simply a vague) pronoun for singular usage since from before I was born (I'm 38 at this time). Most people from my area don't care for grammar in general, much less for the issue of gender neutrality in pronouns.

Interestingly, referring to someone by vague pronoun-like words like someone or somebody (and even words like person, guy, or fellow) seems to be one of the main triggers for the use of they (in its singular sense), regardless of whether the gender of the person in question is known or not.

Example:

Person A: I've got somebody coming out to look at the water heater. When they get here, show them where it is.

Person B: Do you know who it is that'll be coming out?

Person A: Yeah, Bill from down the street. Turns out he works on water heaters for a living.

.

Using they for singular purposes is no different than SU, which cannot be told right away whether it is singular or plural (or even whether it is 2nd or 3rd person) without more context.

SU = your (singular and plural), his, her, its and their.

SU confounds not only gender but also number and person whereas as they (in areas where it is used in a singular sense) confounds only gender and number. But context makes all clear for both.

In the case of doctor, you can use they with doctor in my area, but it is less likely to be done. It sounds funny, I believe, because, doctor, like many professions, carries a strong assumption of gender. Generally, the doctor is known anyway, but for cases where the doctor is unknown, there is a strong tendency to assume a doctor is a male. There is also a strong tendency to assume a nurse is a female. This has nothing to do with pronouns, though. If there were an "official" gender neutral pronoun, people would still tend to assume a doctor was a male.

Oddly, even though Spanish has many gender-neutral pronouns (and a tendency to leave out subject pronouns, which makes it possible to have entire conversations without ever specifying anyone's gender at all), I bet they still make assumptions in their minds about the gender of certain professions. Thus my earlier post.

NOTE: Where I grew up, you may say "they are" or "they is" (whether using they in a singular or plural sense).

Second note: Keep in mind that for the longest time, there was just one doctor per town. And, except for Dr. Quinn, the town's doctor was always a man.

updated Jun 13, 2011
edited by webdunce
posted by webdunce
great input! - la-araña-discoteca, Jun 13, 2011
1
vote

They, them, and their have been used to refer to single individuals for hundreds of years despite the objections of some grammarians. They still take plural conjugations to balance the confusion caused by the use of singular conjugations with anyone and everyone when refering to groups of people.

updated Jun 13, 2011
posted by lorenzo9
I'll second that. - webdunce, Jun 13, 2011
1
vote

Hi Araña,

I understand what your problem is with our use of 'they' 'them' and 'their' when used with a single person, but I agree with Ian that it isn't chauvanistic at all.

Using part of your example:

A person was down at the river bank withdrawing some polliwogs for their froggery, when they heard branches snapping nearby, and saw a creature creeping towards them from out of the forest...

In my opinion, if I assumed that person to have masculine gender without asking, I would be being chauvanistic, but the words per se definitely are not.

Of course, if it's important to know the gender then our first question is going to be "Well, is it a woman or a man?" but it's not always important. We don't need to assume a specific gender, I don't know anybody who I think would assume that we were talking about a man unless there were male-specific detail.

For the sake of argument, if I were to add to your example there...

They looked alarmed, and I could see their long beard blowing in the breeze. I think most of us would assume the subject to be male! (Would that be a chauvanistic assumption then?) wink

To me, the fact that we don't consider it important enough to differentiate suggests a lack of chauvinism. It's a matter of perspective. If you look for the colour blue you'll see it everywhere, etc.

I'll tell you something I consider to be chauvinistic - it's when my (ex) husband says, referring to our neighbours, Susan's kitchen - or Paul's shed......Paul's chainsaw, Susan's saucepan... (names have been changed to respect privacy)

Anyway, don't get me started lol!

It is correct English, it's just a bit weird.

Good question though. smile

updated Jun 13, 2011
posted by galsally
nice :) - Kiwi-Girl, Jun 13, 2011
1
vote

For those looking for a singular gender neutral pronoun I've found some options for you smile

Gender neutral pronoun

updated Jun 13, 2011
posted by Kiwi-Girl
1
vote

What a load of "cobblers" grin

updated Jun 12, 2011
posted by ian-hill
Mate I entirely concur, cobblers indeed ,the third from last is quite suspect. - ray76, Jun 12, 2011
0
votes

When I lived in Australia, people said "Give us. . ." instead of "Give me. . ."

updated Jun 14, 2011
posted by lorenzo9
They still do in England too. - ian-hill, Jun 13, 2011
Agreed, Ian, I don't say that but plenty of people do. - galsally, Jun 14, 2011
0
votes

Although it may not be strictly correct I would use 'them' in this sentence. If the doctor calls, tell -------- I'll call -------- back.

Language evolves all the time so there is no reason why the use of these words should not change to include the singular when gender is not specified.

updated Jun 13, 2011
posted by MaryMcc
i probably agree. i was just trying to have some fun with this topic.... :) - la-araña-discoteca, Jun 13, 2011
0
votes

I think "they" and "their" have pretty much morphed into gender-neutral singular 3rd person pronouns, even though they are not considered "proper" English. I say, who cares? It's much easier than saying "his or her" and "he or she".

So says the chauvinistic male... smile

Consider this:

If the doctor calls, tell -------- I'll call -------- back.

Fill in the blank!!

updated Jun 12, 2011
posted by la-araña-discoteca
That is not chauvinistic - it would be "him" or "her" - if plural doctors it would be "them" - ian-hill, Jun 12, 2011
I think you're missing the poin sir ian. Not knowing the gender of the doctor, how could you determine whether it would be him or her? - la-araña-discoteca, Jun 12, 2011
Then you do use the "neuter gender" them - I see no chauvanistic problem. - ian-hill, Jun 12, 2011
the doctor is one person, while "them" refers to more than one person.... - la-araña-discoteca, Jun 12, 2011
What about "su" in Spansh - did English get that one right? - ian-hill, Jun 12, 2011
not to mention it sounds incorrect when on says, "If the doctor calls, tell them I will call them back. Now that's lousy English. - la-araña-discoteca, Jun 12, 2011
No! English failed yet again with that one. We need a "su-like" third person possessive pronoun! - la-araña-discoteca, Jun 12, 2011
Forgive my typos.... - la-araña-discoteca, Jun 12, 2011
Well we have managed very well for a long long time without one. Mnay words have more than one meaning in both languages. - ian-hill, Jun 12, 2011
0
votes

I think "they" and "their" have pretty much morphed into gender-neutral singular 3rd person pronouns, even though they are not considered "proper" English. I say, who cares? It's much easier than saying "his or her" and "he or she".

updated Jun 12, 2011
posted by gintar77
They are gender nuetral plural pronouns. - ian-hill, Jun 12, 2011