...another subjunctive question

Question

Had a look at el pais online (a difficult task for me at the best of times) and saw this header:

Las 45 horas que hicieron que el PSOE se tambalease

After looking up tambalearse in the dictionary I came up with 'the 45 hours that made the PSOE wobble' it took a while to recognise that form of the past subjunctive -but I don't see why the subjunctive is needed here; is it the que that precedes it (and is that necessary)?

Answer 1

Technically speaking, it is not volition, but influence, although for practical purposes, it doesn't really matter.

Indicative is used with the specific reason of inform about things we know or imagine, regardless of other parts of the sentence. Subjunctive, on the other hand, is used in subordinate clauses when this clause is not independently used to communicate this information, but just to complete the meaning of the main one.

One could try to argue that what follows "hacer que" is this type of information, but it is not, because the subordinate is not independent on the main clause in terms of information, although it is not that easy to see that in the original sentence. While "I know you came here" and "You came here" are equivalent in terms of communicative intentions about your mental processes, "You came here" and "I made you come here" are not. The former is a comment about something I know or imagine, while in the latter one is the consequence of my influence over you, not a sentence that indends to provide information about things you know. In the latter, "hice que" is the the only information that really should be in indicative.

But this lengthy explanation can be shortened by saying that subordinates of verbs and structures that are not "informative" are going to be in subjunctive (and verbs of ignorance or doubt, of course!). These verbs include desire and influence, since none of them declare anything. If you think of it, in "I want you to come here", I am not informing you that you are coming, am I? It would be very weird to inform that you would like something that you know it is true.

Answer 2

I'd say it's the use of 'hacer que' which prompts the subjunctive.

Subjunctive is used because 'hacer que' here means 'made somebody/something do something', and because 'hacer' in this sentence is in a past tense, then the Past Subjunctive is required.

Hope that helps.

I love it when someone who knows what they are talking about agrees with me. - 0074b507, May 27, 2011

...because I'm always just thinking out loud. If it sounds plausible-run it up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes it. - 0074b507, May 27, 2011

Answer 3

So is there some kind of simple rule as to when restrictive adverbial clauses are in the subjunctive?

Is there a difference between happening to inform and intending to inform?

Answer 4

But this lengthy explanation can be shortened by saying that subordinates of verbs and structures that are not "informative" are going to be in subjunctive (and verbs of ignorance or doubt, of course!). These verbs include desire and influence, since none of them declare anything. If you think of it, in "I want you to come here", I am not informing you that you are coming, am I? It would be very weird to inform that you would like something that you know it is true.

In this case, that the PSOE was shaken is only not informative if the reader already knew about it. In my case, it was informative, since before reading this thread I didn't even know what the PSOE was, much less that it had been shaken.

You need to read the 2nd paragraph again. The subordinate clause is not independently informing us about the 45 hours (the main clause). - 0074b507, May 27, 2011

I understand that it is a restricitve clause: see my other question. - lorenzo9, May 27, 2011

Answer 5

Thanks for the answers so far...but I'm still confused. I can't see who made someone do anything. It seems to me that the statement is one of fact and that events in those 45 h caused the party to wobble.

Q thanks for your example but to my eyes it is different because hasta que is followed by an event that may or may not happen -that someone that may make them appear has not yet come along....

Oh sorry lazarus your post appeared after I posted the above....I'll have to read and digest what you said.

Love your picture!! - DR1960, May 27, 2011

hasta que would influence whether hacer was in the indicative or subjunctive mood. When hasta que is concessive (even, though) it takes the subjunctive. When about time (until) it takes the indicative. I had wondered if the hasta que was why is was - 0074b507, May 27, 2011

aparezcan also. I had to look it up. - 0074b507, May 27, 2011

Answer 6

it is the hicieron.....that requires the subjunctive. The only purpose of the que is to introduce the subordinate clause.

the subjunctive and volition

Below is quote in today's Word of the Day thread cited by Jen. I had wondered the same question as you when I read it. Note the similarities.

Cosas no aparecen en este mundo hasta que alguien hace que las aparezcan.

Things don't turn up in this world until somebody turns them up.

I think that the translation should be more literal. ...until someone makes them appear. That shows more how volition is involved.

La Palabra del Día : aparecer

That sentence is not correct. It should be: Las cosas no aparecen en este mundo hasta que alguien hace que aparezcan. - cogumela, May 27, 2011

What do you mean with this, Q?" it is the hicieron.....that requires the subjunctive" Hicieron is perfect in the indicative. - cogumela, May 27, 2011

I meant that it was the verb "made" expressing volition that was causing the subjunctive to be used in the subordinate clause. The sentence is a quote by James Garfield. We can't change it, but now I'm wondering if the English version was the quote - - 0074b507, May 27, 2011

and Jen just tried to translate it. - 0074b507, May 27, 2011