?gives? what is the indirect object of this sentence? gives what? not a person, surely? - Lector_Constante, May 20, 2011
Gives a name - Eddy, May 20, 2011
Why is there a comma in that sentence? - lorenzo9, May 20, 2011
I don't like long sentences and thought a pause might be a good idea. - Eddy, May 20, 2011
The comma is definitely necessary, Eddy. If it weren't there, one might mistakenly think that the entirety ol the sentence after the word "gives" is the direct object, i.e., a person who can't spell a name that ... . - hhmdirocco, May 20, 2011
The sentence would then make no sense: the comma isn't necessary. - lorenzo9, May 20, 2011
It's no different than "What kind of person would give a boy a dog?". Putting a comma in that sentence is incorrect for the same reason. Commas are not used to separate the indirect and direct objects of verbs. - lorenzo9, May 20, 2011
My point exactly. Without the comma the sentence would make no sense, unless one re-read it a number of times in order to perceive the pause where the comma is. Punctuation rules call for a comma where it serves to avoid confusion. - hhmdirocco, May 20, 2011
In your example, which is simpler than the sentence in question, there is no risk of confusing the dog to be the direct object of the word immediately preceding it, as with "spell a name." - hhmdirocco, May 20, 2011
In the original sentence, there must be both a direct and indirect object, hence there is no possibility of confusion and no comma is necessary. - lorenzo9, May 20, 2011
And a sentence with a society giving a person, with a person being the direct object, is so bizarre as to almost never occur. - lorenzo9, May 20, 2011
Right; again you make my point. Grammar rules call for a comma where it serves to avoid confusion, and here it does that by eliminating the need to read the sentence multiple times and analyze it grammatically to properly discern the DO and the IO. ... - hhmdirocco, May 20, 2011
... It inserts the pause where the speaker inserts a vocal pause for the same reason. You are correct in that ordinarily, "commas are not used to separate the indirect and direct objects of verbs," but the exception is allowed here for ease of reading. - hhmdirocco, May 20, 2011
I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the United States of America. . .sorry, there are just too many exceptions to your ad hoc rule. - lorenzo9, May 20, 2011
Look on the bright side: Eddy's received another badge for all of the comments on this post. - lorenzo9, May 20, 2011
Neither do I, nor does the rule, say that wherever people are wont to pause in memorized passages that a comma is inserted. I agree that commas are much overused, but sometimes (less often) they are also omitted where necessary or useful. - hhmdirocco, May 20, 2011
It is not an ad hoc rule. Just consult a reliable grammar. - hhmdirocco, May 20, 2011
My grammar is so old that I'd doubt her reliable... - afowen, May 20, 2011
That's amusing., but incorrect. There are all kind of pauses in speech that are not coorectly annotated by commas. In particular, emphasized words are often followed by a sliht pause because of the way people breath. - lorenzo9, May 20, 2011
The sentence in question is one example. Your rule is not only ad hoc, it is often wrong. - lorenzo9, May 20, 2011
Believe what you wish, my friend. You might like to publish your own grammar, as those that I've consulted (even since this conversation began) stand against you. - hhmdirocco, May 20, 2011
Noo need to write my own. The standard grammars already explain my point. In this sentence there is no possibility of confusion because two objects are required. http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/commas.htm - lorenzo9, May 21, 2011
No possibility of confusion? Very absolute assertion. Maybe not after analysis, as you have done, but probably no one reading that sentence for the first time can read ahead & analyze quickly enough to avoid reading it "as person who can't spell a name." - hhmdirocco, May 21, 2011
There is no rule that REQUIRES the comma, but a rule of discretion that ALLOWS it as a courtesy to the reader, to eliminate the need to stop and re-read the sentence to sort it and understand where there is supposed to be a pause. - hhmdirocco, May 21, 2011
While we were discussing this yesterday, I looked at the same site you cited. Although it is not an authoritative source, it does a good job explaining the rules. Did you not notice Rule #8? “Use a comma TO AVOID CONFUSION (emphasis theirs). ... - hhmdirocco, May 21, 2011
... "This is often a matter of consistently applying rule [sic] #3.” Under Rule #3, you’ll find, “It is permissible to omit the comma … if the omission does not result in confusion or hesitancy in reading. If there is ever any doubt, use the comma ….” ... - hhmdirocco, May 21, 2011
... Even though Rule #3 deals with a different situation, this illustrates the discretion (subjectivity) that is involved. What may appear totally clear to the writer (or a reader who has analyzed the sentence) may cause hesitancy in a reader who is ... - hhmdirocco, May 21, 2011
... giving the sentence a first look. Quoting Simon & Schuster's "Handbook for Writers, Annotated Instructor's Edition" (800+-page text), Rule 24i “Using commas to clarify meaning” says, "Sometimes, a comma can clarify the meaning of a sentence, ... - hhmdirocco, May 21, 2011
"... even though no other rule calls for one." While I grant that there is some subjectivity as to what is confusing or what needs clarifying, there is no rule that declares the sentence in question to be wrong. Eddy evidently felt it needed clarifying. - hhmdirocco, May 21, 2011
To quote one more … http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/607/02/ (Purdue University): “Rule 11. Use commas wherever necessary to prevent possible confusion or misreading. Ex.– To George, Harrison had been a sort of idol.” - hhmdirocco, May 21, 2011
Now in the above example, YOU might say that "there is no possibility of confusion" because "To George Harrison" cannot be the subject of that sentence. But again, that is after analyzing the sentence. ... - hhmdirocco, May 21, 2011
... The rule is to use a comma to prevent possible confusion or misreading when encountering the sentence for the first time, as one would do when reading publicly, out loud, without the benefit of prior review. - hhmdirocco, May 21, 2011
This really needs to be its own thread. - hhmdirocco, May 21, 2011
