Omitting the subject pronoun

Question

For those who find it weird that the personal pronouns do not have to be used in Spanish (actually, they are used, but for some specific reasons, not just because they accompany the verb), I have been doing a little bit of research:

• From all the Indo-European verbs, only the Germanic branches and French require the pronoun all the time. In the Italic branches (Spanish, Portuguese, Italian...), the Balto-Slavic ones (Russian, Croatian, Czech, Polish...), Celtic (Welsh, Irish...) and others, the omission is not only possible, but common.
• Most Chinese languages omit the pronouns frequently.
• Japanese, Turkish and other agglutinative languages allow the omission. Japanese, in particular, find it odd (and annoyingly repetitive) to hear foreigners use personal pronouns all the time.
• Most African languages (there are around 2000) often omit the pronoun, and the same happens with Austronesian (Australia, Pacific islands...). There are 820 alone in Papua New Guinea, and more than 300 in Indonesia.
• According to Wikipedia, among Native American languages, dropping the subject is almost universal. There are nearly 300 languages in Mexico, more than 150 in USA, and over 400 in South America.
• Add to the list many Indian and Asian languages.
• Arabic and other Semitic languages, apparently, can also have null subjects.

Summing up: outside of Europe I have found so far less than 10 languages where the personal pronouns are compulsory. Surely I haven't checked all 6000 languages, but it seems that the systematic usage of personal pronouns in English or French is actually a rarity among human languages. Of course, many languages (if not all) have some rare features when compared to the rest of the languages, but this reminds us that we cannot judge other languages using ours as the perfect canon of logic.

My two cents.

I think's that's worth more like 2.50 :-). Very interesting, Lazarus! - Gekkosan, May 4, 2011

I think you should qualify the title with Omitting the subject pronoun - 0074b507, May 4, 2011

Done! - lazarus1907, May 4, 2011

I assume the omission occurs principally in conversation & context where the subject is established?? - Lector_Constante, May 4, 2011

Of course! But if you suddenly say "want ice cream", despite the bad grammar everyone will assume you mean "I", right? - lazarus1907, May 4, 2011

Oh, so number & maybe "person" (1st,2nd,3rd) is indicated in the verb - otherwise how to indicate (other than pointing which is usually considered rude) that (an)other(s) want(s) ice cream? - Lector_Constante, May 4, 2011

Interesting Post well taken - pacofinkler, May 4, 2011

voting - 00494d19, May 4, 2011

Excellent iresearch nformation, Lazarus so voting :) I found it fascinating to read :) - FELIZ77, May 4, 2011

Love it! :) - cogumela, May 4, 2011

Very informative. Thanks. - ian-hill, May 4, 2011

I will remember this next time I am speaking Chinese - Russian - Turkish etc etc. (some hope) :) - ian-hill, May 4, 2011

Pensaba que Heidita fuera muy en la extrema! Pero no es así! - 002262dd, May 5, 2011

What would we ever do without you? You should write a book. Your research is excellent and interesting. - JoyceM, Aug 7, 2011

Yet once again -- another masterful post. Como siempre, agradezco mucho. - territurtle, Sep 13, 2011

Answer 1

Juan: (Yo) Soy médico. I am a doctor. Pablo: Yo soy arquitecto. I am an architect.

Juan doesn’t have to use the subject pronoun, but Pablo must use it as he is reacting to Juan’s words using the same verb.

That's nearly correct! Once Juan has introduced a topic, the polite thing for Pablo to do is to follow the conversation acknowledging the previous comment by presenting a contrast tú vs. yo. Omitting the pronoun sounds almost as if you didn't hear the other person, and you are making a statement that has nothing to do with the previous one. Remember that this "yo" from Pablo is a direct reply to Juan's comment -you need to have, on one hand, something, and on the other one something else so that the second statement demands the pronoun.

Ah, you only acknowledge once; after that you continue with the omissions, since you have already fulfilled your 'duties'.

Pepe: ¿Quién quiere café? Who wants coffee? Luis: Yo quiero, pero sólo un poco. I do, but just a little. Antonio: Yo no quiero, gracias. I don’t, thanks.

Correct too. This time everyone is addressed, and the first one who replies makes a contrast everyone vs. himself, as if saying "I don't know about the rest, but I..." Again, you are acknowledging other people' personal views while presenting yours next to them.

So, why not doing this all the time? You might wonder. Well, for starters, you need a comparison group that you are deliberately using for contrastive purposes. If you say "Yo soy doctor" out of the blue, a native will be wondering "A doctor... as opposed or compared to whom?"

Thank you, the insight you share is incredibly helpful. - Stadt, May 4, 2011

Great explanation....thank you. - --Mariana--, May 5, 2011

You always explain things so well. Thank you, como siempre. - MLucie, Aug 7, 2011

Answer 2

Arabic and other Semitic languages, apparently, can also have null subjects.

In the Arabic slang, using subject pronouns isn't necessary and sometimes odd!

Most of the times we use the subject pronouns just to give the phrase a strong meaning, like:-

Without the subject pronoun:

I want to go shopping.

With the subject pronoun:

I really want to go shopping, it's very necessary!

That sounds a bit like the way it works in Spanish, too. - Gekkosan, May 4, 2011

Thank you, Lovely, for that interesting insight into your language :-) - FELIZ77, May 4, 2011

Thanks for the confirmation! - lazarus1907, May 4, 2011

You're welcome and thanks :) - 00b6f46c, May 4, 2011

I love the sound of Arabic. Sometimes, however, it sounds like people are mad when they aren't. I guess it is just the tone is spoken in. - Beatrice-Codder, May 4, 2011

lol well beatrice the Arabic has so many accents, you mean the standard arabic one? - 00b6f46c, May 4, 2011

Most people are not aware of how many accents are there in Arabic. Most of those people still believe that there is one Latin American standard accent and vocabulary. - lazarus1907, May 4, 2011

I have been around and heard Jordanian, Iraqi, Egyptian, Syrian, Saudi people speak on a frequent basis and many others on a less frequent basis. I can tell the slight differences but they all have the same tone to me. - Beatrice-Codder, May 5, 2011

Answer 3

I found this an interesting situation too, I was thinking actually, this is not a contrast situation but simple answer like yo or yo no, would do.

¿Quién quiere café? Yo....

Alberto? yo no.

I completely agree with cogu on this.

Stadt said:

But could I walk up to a counter and say "quisiera un café español"- and if so why don't I need a "yo" there---If I answer the question "quién quiere un café" with "quiero" who else would I be talking about. I think to an English speaking mind there is no difference, but to a Spanish speaking mind there is. That is why it is important to understand how a native speaker would say something and not demand that everything make complete sense- with people (in any language) it never will.

I think we are confusing the English answer , which is translated as "yo quiero" , wrongly in my opinion.

If you say:

Do you want some coffee? yes, I do.

You are simply saying: ¿Quieres café? Si .

Really, the do bit does not mean a thing, the verb is not important and not even mentioned. It is a simple fact that so called tags are simply used to avoid not saying simply yes or no.

I mean, if somebody asks me: ¿Quieres café? I would never say: Si quiero. I would say : si, con leche por favor. Sí, si no te importa.

But , sí quiero....would not even ocurr to me.

So :

Quieres café? Si, dame un poco.

Alberto? no, para mí no. /no, yo no/ no, no tengo sed.....

(being the bolded answer : NO, I don't)

And of course in English, I would answer yes, or sure (thing), or okay (or no, or not right now, or?). That is the problem with most textbooks, no one talks in that type of language in real life. - Stadt, May 4, 2011

And as a random comment, to an American, a "Spanish coffee" is a coffee drink made with liquer that involves lighting the drink on fire at one stage of the preparation (done as a show for the recipient). - Stadt, May 4, 2011

Y podré pedir uno en México el sábado que viene. (Please correct any mistakes in my Spanish). :-) - Stadt, May 4, 2011

Answer 4

@izanoni:

This debate could go forever, and I lack the necessary data to argue in many respects, but I can tell you about Mandarin Chinese, which I hear in my house from my wife, my mother in law, and countless guests we get every week: personal pronouns are often omitted, and my wife has a degree in linguistics and my mother in law is a Chinese teacher, so I guess their Chinese cannot be that bad.

Japanese is another language where I am confident about omitting personal pronouns, and in Turkish I have good reasons to make a similar statement.

Besides Wikipedia, I have at least 40 or 50 grammars in different languages, and although I have not read them all carefully, I have done some spot checks here and there just in case. I suggest we debate this over specific languages, rather than throwing colourful maps at each other. We'll be here forever, but it'll be fun, though.

And before we misunderstand one another, I do not believe in universal grammar (or Chomsky's postulates). I am aware of huge differences between languages, and that's what I tried to illustrate with my post.

I still recommend that you read "Dying words", but I much rather recommend "Unfolding of Language", which I found fascinating.

His post seems to have disappeared. - Stadt, May 4, 2011

I strongly second Lazarus's recommendation. - territurtle, Sep 14, 2011

Answer 5

How could you only answer "quiero"? I think that it's logical to answer "Yo quiero", or just "Yo".

I don't see why this is considered a contrast. For me, a contrast would be:

It is simple: if you say "quiero", you are not taking into consideration what other people think about the coffee suggestion, while in "Yo quiero" you acknowledge other people's potential preference towards the drink, but your personal, own, individual opinion (as opposed to the others) is that you do want.

I guess the issue is tricky enough to confuse natives... or the approach is not good enough to be helpful to anyone! When you use pronouns, the people you are using those pronouns for are going to be wondering why on Earth you used them, you will be inviting them to look for patterns, contrasts... If there are some other things or people to measure yourself against, these pronouns are likely to appear.

¿Tú crees?

¿Cúal es la diferencia exacta entre esta frase y la siguiente?

¿No crees?

Welcome to pragmatics, hehe. The negative "no" in Spanish has the ability to create a contrast, like a pronoun would. Adverbs like "aquí" can achieve the same effect:

En Francia toman curasanes. Tomamos bocadillos ??????

En Francia toman curasanes. Aquí tomamos bocadillos

The same effect with personal pronouns:

En Francia toman curasanes. Desayuno bocadillos ??????

En Francia toman curasanes. Yo desayuno bocadillos

Welcome to the world of linguistics (where every day is a surprise)

:) No he querido decir que la aproximación no sea buena, de hecho, estoy segura de que lo es. - cogumela, May 5, 2011

En el ejemplo de "Soy médico. -Yo arquitecto" me parece clarísimo, además de que lo has explicado muy bien. Es el segundo ejemplo el que me confundió, pero seguro que es debido a mi falta de perspectiva, no había pensado en contraste desde ese prisma. - cogumela, May 5, 2011

Lo de "no" y "aquí" es muy interesante, su efecto es tan potente que sin ellas la frase se queda totalmente desnuda y falta de sentido. - cogumela, May 5, 2011

Answer 6

Si bien está claro que el uso constante del pronombre personal no es recomendable, -sin alterar el significado genera una sensación muy extraña al oído del hispanohablante- omitirlo cuando hace falta es un error muy común (en este foro especialmente).

El otro día leía un post en el que Lazarus, muy apropiadamente, "corregía una corrección" en la que alguien recomendaba prescindir del pronombre en la frase:

¿Tú crees?

Esto me hizo pensar en otras muchas estructuras del español que requieren del mismo para tener sentido, como:

¡Ya decía yo!

Te voy a dar yo a ti.

¡Mira tú!

Como tú digas

e intenté buscarle una explicación con el argumento habitual, el del contraste y el énfasis, y el caso es que no me pareció completamente convincente. En muchos casos (muy a menudo corrigiendo la frase del día) echo de menos una buena explicación al respecto, porque creo que a los hablantes no nativos no les puede resultar sencillo entender el sentido que adquieren los pronombres en las frases anteriores.

Volviendo al primer ejemplo:

¿Tú crees?

¿Cúal es la diferencia exacta entre esta frase y la siguiente?

¿No crees?

Parecen muy similares, pero la primera no puede prescindir del pronombre, y la segunda casi ni lo acepta. Es verdad que, si las analizamos bien, la primera frase tiene más carácter contrastivo que la segunda, que parece más retórica, solo esperando confirmación.

Pero volvemos a lo de siempre, ningún nativo se para a pensar: “ahora voy a soltar un pronombre personal para marcar bien la diferencia, que quiero que se note que voy a resaltar una individualidad frente a la otra”. Es simplemente, así como decimos las cosas.

No me enrollo más.

Any thoughts?

I have a lot of difficulty understanding why I do certain things in English, and so often cannot explain why something is "right" in my language. (I am lacking the formal training in English grammar that some here have). I , as a beginner, also ... - Stadt, May 4, 2011

...recognize in Spanish that there are a number of subtleties that I will not be able to comprehend for a while (if ever), but I try to learn a little more every day. - Stadt, May 4, 2011

You're doing great Stadt!. I agree with your comments about English, we speak it well, without thinking about grammar or punctuation. The words are just there. - nike907, May 4, 2011

Gracias Cogumela! - MLucie, Aug 7, 2011

Answer 7

Just for interest, I am going to put in a passage from one of my workbooks, for comment. This is not written by a native Spanish speaker.

This is from a section on omission of subject pronouns, where the author comments on several places that she thinks that the subject pronouns are required:

In conversation, the speaker who first introduces a subject doesn’t need to use the subject pronoun, but other speakers do use it when they go on talking about the same subject (often using the same verb):

Juan: (Yo) Soy médico. I am a doctor. Pablo: Yo soy arquitecto. I am an architect.

Juan doesn’t have to use the subject pronoun, but Pablo must use it as he is reacting to Juan’s words using the same verb.

When a speaker asks someone a question, the second speaker doesn’t need to use the subject pronoun:

Juan: (Yo) Soy médico. ¿Y tú? I am a doctor. And you? Pablo: (Yo) Soy arquitecto. I am an architect.

However, questions asked of a group require the subject pronoun when the different members of the group respond:

Pepe: ¿Quién quiere café? Who wants coffee? Luis: Yo quiero, pero sólo un poco. I do, but just a little. Antonio: Yo no quiero, gracias. I don’t, thanks.

When talking to the different members of a group in turns, subject pronouns can be left out when the members are addressed personally, using their names:

Ana (a Luis): ¿Qué te vas a poner, Luis? What are you going to wear, Luis? Luis: Me voy a poner mi traje nuevo. I’m going to wear my new suit. Ana (a Paco): ¿Qué te vas a poner tú? What are you going to wear?

In the first question, Ana could have used tú, as subject pronouns can be used with proper nouns. In the second question, Ana has to use tú, as she is now asking the same question to another member of the group.

This is the first time I have seen something stating that there are times that subject pronouns should be used in cases where the context is obvious, and am wondering if the discussion is correct.

Edit to add: This is a small part of a larger section, that makes it clear elsewhere that subject pronouns that are not required should not be used without specific reason, and that when it states that a subject pronoun can be used but is not required, the assumption is that the reader already understands that.

All of teh above looks about right. I wouldn't go as far as saying *must* in some of those cases, but generally that's teh way it goes. For instance, in the first example, Pablo *could* simple reply "arquitecto", and it would be understood that he means - Gekkosan, May 4, 2011

"yo soy". If Pablo simply said "soy arquitecto", I would not find it odd. The rest I'm not contesting. - Gekkosan, May 4, 2011

Thanks- I think she is trying to say that if he is asked, he does not need the pronoun, but if he spontaneously volunteers it in response to Juan's statement, he should use it. - Stadt, May 4, 2011

Probably in a normal conversation, the question is implicit however. - Stadt, May 4, 2011

@Stadt, Can you please cite the workbook? - Sabor, May 4, 2011

Advanced Spanish Grammar, Dorothy Richmond (Practice Makes Perfect series). - Stadt, May 4, 2011

Answer 8

Japanese, Turkish and other agglutinative languages allow the omission. Japanese, in particular, find it odd (and annoyingly repetitive) to hear foreigners use personal pronouns all the time.

That's right, and there are another two things: we, the turkish, also find it annoying to repeat personal pronouns. And if we don't omit it, the logic of letting it remain is exactly the same as Spanish. Even in this example: ¡Y yo qué sé!

Answer 9

I have added this new thread to the old one, where this topic was discussed, it is a very old thread

Omission of subject pronouns

Thanks! - --Mariana--, May 5, 2011

Answer 10

lol well beatrice the Arabic has so many accents, you mean the standard arabic one? - lovely_lovel

Most people are not aware of how many accents, dialects (and even languages) are there in Arabic. Most of those people still believe that there is one Latin American standard accent and vocabulary.

Answer 11

This one puzzled me:

¿Quién quiere café? Yo quiero.

This time everyone is addressed, and the first one who replies makes a contrast everyone vs. himself, as if saying "I don't know about the rest, but I..."

I would have never understood this like a contrast, but like a simple answer.

If a person asks ¿quieres? you can reply: "sí, quiero" or just "quiero" , but if a person asks : Who wants? How could you only answer "quiero"? I think that it's logical to answer "Yo quiero", or just "Yo".

I don't see why this is considered a contrast. For me, a contrast would be:

¿Cómo lo quieren?

Yo lo quiero solo, por favor.

I can be wrong, though.

I think what she is trying to say is that when you say "Yo quiero"- you are emphasizing that this is what "I "want (not what anybody else wants)- if you were not needing to emphasize "yo" it would work to simply say "quiero". - Stadt, May 4, 2011

i mean that you can't just say "quiero", because it wouldn't make sense. This is even worse if the case of Antonio, who does not want coofee... - cogumela, May 4, 2011

How could he answer "No"? Situation: Question: "Who wants coffee?" - Answer: "No". ??? - cogumela, May 4, 2011

But could I walk up to a counter and say "quisiera un café español"- and if so why don't I need a "yo" there---If I answer the question "quién quiere un café" with "quiero" who else would I be talking about. I think to an English speaking mind there is . - Stadt, May 4, 2011

no difference, but to a Spanish speaking mind there is. That is why it is important to understand how a native speaker would say something and not demand that everything make complete sense- with people (in any language) it never will. - Stadt, May 4, 2011

In "Quisiera un cafe" you shouldn't add a pronoun. Let's focus on the important words, those full of meaning in the sentences: I would "LiKe" a "CoFFee" / Who want's coffee? "SHe" wants coffee. - cogumela, May 4, 2011

Which gets back to the original- you are emphasizing something. But you must emphasize something in contrast with something else. In the first- coffee (as opposed to any other choice on the menu). In the second- she (as opposed to any other person). - Stadt, May 4, 2011

In Antonio's case I'm not emphasizing, is just that I can't make the sentence omitting it. - cogumela, May 4, 2011

But then, why can't you say "no quiero café". If you just don't, I am okay with that- I don't need any further explanation. - Stadt, May 4, 2011

If you are asked "where", you will answer a place. if you are asked Why, a reason, if What, a thing, if Who, a person. - cogumela, May 4, 2011

No quiero café is not a person. It's just a negation. - cogumela, May 4, 2011

But we are told that we do not need the subject pronouns when it is obvious from the verb conjugation, and in this case it seems to be obvious from the verb conjugation. That is why we English speakers need to learn this as an exception to that rule. - Stadt, May 4, 2011

Answer 12

but it seems that the systematic usage of personal pronouns in English or French is actually a rarity among human languages.

It is easy to see why English and Scandinavian languages use personal pronouns - but why should French be the "odd one out" among the the "Italic" languages?

I'm no expert, but I know the Normands who invaded England in 1066 had some root in both languages. For many centuries, England and France had many close ties (kings marrying queens). - Beatrice-Codder, May 4, 2011

Answer 13

Nobody omits personal pronouns used as direct objects; without "lo" it's anybody's guess who gets the affection.

Sorry, but I can give you examples in at least 15 languages where personal pronouns are normally omitted. Chinese and Japanese, two name two, do that all the time:

suki desu ka? = do you like it/him/her?

or "Do you like us/them?" - samdie, May 5, 2011

That too, hehe. I got tired of listing pronouns. - lazarus1907, May 5, 2011

Answer 14

His post seems to have disappeared

Yes. After rereading it, I decided to delete it because I was probably a bit too meandering in trying to state my opinion and wasn't overly confident that what I was discussing was likely to be of interest to anyone, anyway.

Nevertheless, I did want to repost, as a sort of addendum, the following links to an interactive map and its accompanying text which describes various ways in which pronominal subjects are expressed in world languages

Thanks, I enjoy linguistics and maps, even though I am no knowledgeable enough to contribute meaningfully to the discussion. - Stadt, May 5, 2011

An important contribution to the discussion. - territurtle, Sep 14, 2011

Answer 15

I don't know whether there is a language that will kill you if you omit the personal pronoun, but English omits the pronoun to signal the imperative, for example, but even in this case, the presence of the pronoun is rigidly dictated by its grammar. Let's just stick to statements, where English and a few other languages demand pronouns for the subject in the absence of a substitute. Most languages I've checked do not have such strong restrictions, if I'm not mistaken.