molestar (transitive) & doler (intransitive)

Question

Hi everyone. It's been a while since I asked a question.

I thought that I have pretty much understood the concept of transitive & intransitive verbs. A transitive verb takes a direct object, and an intransitive one doesn't. Simple enough, right? Now, there are situations like this one:

Me molesta la pierna. (La pierna molesta a mí) = My leg is bothering me / bothers me / is giving me problems.

Me duele la pierna. (La pierna duele a mí) = My leg hurts (Literally "My leg pains me.)

For me, molestar & doler in this context are interchangeable, but the problem is, molestar (used this way) is listed as an transitive verb (see molestar in our dictionary to verify) & doler is, of course, intransitive. In the second sentence, "Me" is the indirect object and "la pierna" is the subject. For molestar to be transitive, "Me" must be the direct object, but the way I see it, it functions the same way as doler here, in such a way that la pierna is the one bothering/hurting, which is then received by me/a mí. Bottom line is, I don't see the distinction of being transitive and intransitive in the way they are used in the sentences.

Thanks in advance for your opinions/ideas.

PS: I don't doubt what's in the dictionary. My understanding of the concept is what I'm doubting.

..listed as *a* transitive.. - Deanski, Apr 12, 2011

Answer 1

A transitive verb takes a direct object, and an intransitive one doesn't. Simple enough, right?

So what do you call those hundreds of verbs (even in English) that can be used intransitively or transitively? (the terminology I prefer) E.g. I am running (intransitive) / I am running a report (transitive).

You can't appreciate the difference unless you look at third person object pronouns, because "me" and "te" are identical as direct and indirect objects. "Molestar" can function both as transitive and intransitive, so you cannot say it is a transitive verb. "Doler", on the other hand, is indeed intransitive, because it cannot be used in a transitive construction -in Spanish you can't "doler" other people (In English you can hurt others, though.)

La molesto (transitive)

Le molesta algo (intransitive)

Le duele algo (intransitive)

The basic transitive/intransitive idea (not a rule) is that of having an active or a passive role. In "La molesto", I am doing the "bothering", but in the other two intransitive sentences, I simply experience what "algo" is doing to me -that "algo" has the active role.

Hmm, in my question I said: "molestar --(used this way)-- is listed as a transitive verb. I'm referring specifically to how molestar is used in the dictionary, under the category transitive. - Deanski, Apr 12, 2011

Answer 2

Me molesta la pierna. Yo soy molestado por la pierna

Maybe it is just me, but I find that passive ridiculous, unless you want to personify your leg.

Le molesta algo. Algo es molestado por ella ???

Le duele algo. Algo es dolido por él ???

That's not how you turn a sentence into passive. The subject of the active (i.e. algo) should become the agent of the passive (i.e. por algo). Your active and passive sentences have the same subject. The only way to turn these into passive (assuming that you could, because you can't with "doler") is "Él es dolidopor algo". The verb "doler" is simply intransitive, so forget about "La pierna lo duele" or "Él es dolido por la pierna". With "molestar" is at least theoretically possible, but I find the passive unacceptable, as I said before.

Verbs called "de afección psíquica", like molestar, asombrar or preocupar can be used both as transitive or intransitive. Normally, as I said before, the choice depends on the degree of control or intentionality of the subject, so when the subject is a person or an animal, they are used as transitive if we focus on the person affecting other people (i.e. Molesta a su hermano = Lo molesta), or as intransitive if we focus on the affected person (i.e. Le molestan los niños). When the subject does not have a will or it is a thing, these verbs are typically intransitive if the thing is placed after the verb (Le asusta la luna), but they are also used as transitive if the thing comes before the verb (Ese sonido la aterraba). In some South American countries like Argentina there is a preference to use transitive constructions with things for certain verbs. All these uses are accepted by the RAE.

You went for an easy topic, eh?

Yes. I was close to having sleepless nights. - Deanski, Apr 12, 2011

Answer 3

The basic transitive/intransitive idea (not a rule) is that of having an active or a passive role. In "La molesto", I am doing the "bothering", but in the other two intransitive sentences, I simply experience what "algo" is doing to me -that "algo" has the active role.

Indeed, and that's the crux.

So, let's transform the sentences into passive voice and will see what happens (they have not to sound natural, just to make sense)

Transitive:

Me molesta la pierna. Yo soy molestado por la pierna

La molesto. Ella es molestada por mí

Intransitive:

Le molesta algo. Ella es molestada por algo ???

Le duele algo. Él es dolido por algo ???

Me duele la pierna. Yo soy dolido por la pierna ???

I'm reading... (and trying to digest) - Deanski, Apr 12, 2011

There a a couple of mistakes there. See below. - lazarus1907, Apr 12, 2011

Tienes razón, como siempre :) - cogumela, Apr 12, 2011

Answer 4

I got it now. The confusion was with the resemblance between me duele & me molesta, but changing the pronouns in the 3rd person from le to lo/la worked like a charm, and now it I understand how molestar is used transitively here.

Thanks Lazarus and Cogumela for the insightful answers (to Lorenzo as well for the correction) and to everyone who viewed this and took interest (and had a headache after, lol).

it was useful to me - im just about getting it too now! lol - billygoat, Apr 12, 2011

Answer 5

Me duele el cerebro.

Kill me now.

Haha. That's me for the past couple of days. - Deanski, Apr 12, 2011

Answer 6

1) Le duele la pierna. (La pierna le duele a ella)

2) Le molesta la pierna. (La pierna le molesta a ella)

In the 1st sentence, I am confident that "a" is a preposition, because if not, then "ella" would be a direct object and doler would be transitive (which it isn't).

In the 2nd sentence, the only way (I think) that molestar would be transitive is if the "a" is a personal "a". If that's not the case, then this sentence would be an example of molestar being used intransitively, thus making the dictionary entry an erroneous one.

Odd use of the word errant. - lorenzo9, Apr 12, 2011

I told you before: use the third person (lo, le), because with "me" you can't tell apart direct from indirect object pronouns. - lazarus1907, Apr 12, 2011

Ah, you can't say "La pierna duele a mí". You must say "me" when you use "a mí", i.e. when the object contains a tonic pronoun (mí, ti, él, nosotros...) - lazarus1907, Apr 12, 2011

Ok, I'll do that. & thanks too, lorenzo.. - Deanski, Apr 12, 2011

Answer 7

I understand "algo" as the subject in the intransitive sentence "Le molesta/duele algo" (Correct me if I'm wrong)

Taking these given examples as a guide:

Le molesta algo = Algo es molestado por ella

Le duele algo. = Algo es dolido por él

***So..

If we substitute algo with, say, el amor, then:

Le molesta el amor = el amor es molestado por ella ??

Le duele el amor = el amor es dolido por ella ??

---

This is the part that I have no problems with:

Me duele la pierna. Yo soy dolido por la pierna.

So do I, because it sounds wrong. - lazarus1907, Apr 12, 2011