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Hacer falta v.s necesitar - Explanation needed

Hacer falta v.s necesitar - Explanation needed

1
vote

I wrote

¿Cuántos grados hace falta el horno para cocinar el pastel? - How many degrees does the oven need to cook the cake?

But this was suggested

"Hace falta" doesn't have a subject, but you have one in your sentence, el horno, so this idiomatic expression doesn't fit here. Use necesita instead.

It should be

¿Cuántos grados necesita el horno para cocinar el pastel? -

Can someone explain me the correction?

10936 views
updated Mar 14, 2011
edited by dewclaw
posted by dewclaw
*Explain the correction to me*. - Sabor, Mar 13, 2011
Hace falta una explicación. ;-D - Gekkosan, Mar 13, 2011
Ok, make fun :) - Sabor, Mar 13, 2011

8 Answers

3
votes

Hey that was my suggestion! grin

I''l give you two examples on how to answer the question you gave (Pardon if the translation is a bit faulty.)

1) El horno necesita 300 grados para cocinar el pastel. (The oven needs 300 degrees to bake the cake.)

2) Hacen falta 300 grados para cocinar el pastel. (300 degrees is needed to bake the cake.)

In the 1st answer we are saying outright that it is the oven that needs 300 degrees for the cake to be baked.

In the 2nd answer using the idiomatic expression hacer falta (specifically, hacen falta since grados is plural), we are expressing the need in general to heat the oven to 300 degrees in order to bake the cake. (Of course, we imply that the cake needs an oven to bake in.)

Another example:

Los estudiantes necesitan $4000 para matricularse en la universidad.

Hacen halta $4000 para matricularse en la universidad.

In the 1st one we are saying that the students specifically need $4000 to enroll in the university. In the 2nd one, we are talking about a general need for or requirement of $4000 to enroll, that is, without mentioning anyone in particular.

Edit: After a closer, more "intense" analysis, I realized that I made a booboo. There is a subject for "Hacer falta." But the subject is not whatever it is that needs something, it is the thing (or things) that is/are needed or lacking. That explains why it agrees with the subject in number. So my suggestion stands as it was (that you need necesitar instead of hacer falta in your sentence), but please just disregard what I said that hacer falta doesn't have a subject. I'm terribly sorry about that, dew.

updated Mar 13, 2011
edited by Deanski
posted by Deanski
hm... reading .... - dewclaw, Mar 13, 2011
So is it "pastel" that *falta grados* or *el horno*? - Sabor, Mar 13, 2011
the oven needs - pacofinkler, Mar 13, 2011
the oven is "ït" methinks "hace" - pacofinkler, Mar 13, 2011
Using faltar, the correct sentence would be: Al horno le faltan 300 grados para cocinar el pastel. - Deanski, Mar 13, 2011
Le or Se deanski? - pacofinkler, Mar 13, 2011
Le, because this is an indirect pronoun. This is similar to gustar, encantar, etc.:) - Deanski, Mar 13, 2011
Oh man, now I'm confused... Ok I don't get all this direct and indirect grammar terminology. - dewclaw, Mar 13, 2011
2
votes

All right, I am posting this answer by request. Here goes my interpretation of the whole mess. Let's start with the source of the problem:

¿Cuántos grados hace falta el horno para cocinar el pastel? - How many degrees does the oven need to cook the cake?

It should be

¿Cuántos grados necesita el horno para cocinar el pastel? -

First of all, in my very humble opinion, that is a very strange way to pose a simple question such as "At what temperature should I bake the cake?" But anyway, fine - we want to ask specifically how many degrees must be reached within the oven in order to bake a cake (seriously? Don't you find this is weird? - must be me, then).

The problem with the original attempt is that it is not correctly written. You could say, "¿cuántos grados hacen falta para que el horno pueda cocinar el pastel?" This means "how many degrees are required in order for the oven to cook the cake?"

Samdie is right in that "cuántos grados le hacen falta al horno para cocinar..." should be strictly interpreted as "how many degrees is the oven lacking...", although on first reading I'd probably go ahead and interpret it as originally meant, i.e.: how hot does do oven need to be?

I agree that the corrected version: "¿Cuántos grados necesita el horno para cocinar el pastel? " is probably the best way to express such an awkward expression. More direct and natural, no doubt.

But I understand that the issue is: how can I use "hacer falta"?

"Hacer falta" means to miss something, to need someting: "¿Qué hace falta para que podamos cocinar el pastel?" - What's needed in order to cook the cake? (What is lacking that we can provide in order to accomplish this? - temperature).

"¿No te hace falta tu dosis diaria de SD?" Don't you miss your daily dose of SD?

"Me hace falta dormir más" - "I need to sleep more (I don't have enough of this, I am lacking sufficient sleep).

To close, as a native speaker, it simply would not occur to me to state the question in those terms. Not that it can't be done, it just doesn't strike me as natural, is all.

updated Mar 14, 2011
posted by Gekkosan
Jeje...Then I guess it's safe to say that you are not a big fan of circumlocution, eh?....Great post! :) - Izanoni1, Mar 13, 2011
Actually specifying the exact temperature for baking is quite common, and modern ovens with their extremely underdamped digital temperature controls don't bake nearly as well as older ovens from the 50's. - lorenzo9, Mar 14, 2011
2
votes

With all due apologies to those who prefer commonly used expressions over mathematically/scientifically accurate expressions, "¿Cuántos grados hacen falta el horno para cocinar el pastel?" Does not ask "What should the temperature be?" but, rather, "How many degrees are lacking?" If the oven is set at 300 and the temperature should be at 450, then 150 degrees are lacking (faltan 150 grados).

updated Mar 13, 2011
posted by samdie
there! - pacofinkler, Mar 13, 2011
You make me feel so excluded :) - lorenzo9, Mar 13, 2011
Although I prefer to say 'The sun rises' I am glad to know why it is inaccurate to say it. I like this answer of yours but I see no conflict with accuracy of "Cuantos grados hacen falta . . ." - Sabor, Mar 13, 2011
1
vote

The thing that is lacking something is the indirect object, what it is lacking is the direct object:

La temperatura del horno le hace falta 100 grados.

Le hace falta 100 grados la temperatura del horno.

updated Mar 13, 2011
posted by lorenzo9
So, if I say, "Nos faltan Irene y Belen." (Irene and Belen are absent [from our class]), Irene and Belen are the direct objects and "we/us" is the indirect? - chris126, Mar 13, 2011
1
vote

¿Cuántos grados necesita el horno para cocinar el pastel?

Dewclaw ,your statement is correct, I called a friend to confirm it.

updated Mar 13, 2011
posted by pacofinkler
But that wasn't her sentence, it was Deanski's suggestion! - Sabor, Mar 13, 2011
Lo siento I thought it was from her post, - pacofinkler, Mar 13, 2011
0
votes

Hace falta cocinar el pastel a 300 grados por media hora.

Se necesita cocinar o que se cocine el pastel a 300 grados por media hora.

That's the maximum you can bake that cake (heat wise) smile

updated Mar 13, 2011
posted by chileno
Exactly. Much more natural. :-) - Gekkosan, Mar 13, 2011
0
votes

To say it is an idiomatic expression in Spanish means No, it cannot be explained in English. Hace frío, hace calor I'm sure you know. Tú me haces falta, I miss you, how could that be explained?

updated Mar 13, 2011
posted by Sabor
Not true, everything can be explained - dewclaw, Mar 13, 2011
you just have to find the right equivalent - dewclaw, Mar 13, 2011
Agree with Dewclaw. There my be no literal translation, but it can always be described and explained, not alway perfectly, of course. - chris126, Mar 13, 2011
0
votes

Wikipedia:

Idiom (Latin: idioma, “special property”, f. Greek: ?????? — idi?ma, “special feature, special phrasing”, f. Greek: ????? — idios, “one’s own”) is an expression, word, or phrase that has a figurative meaning that is comprehended in regard to a common use of that expression that is separate from the literal meaning or definition of the words of which it is made.

In linguistics, idioms are usually presumed to be figures of speech contradicting the principle of compositionality; yet the matter remains debated. John Saeed defines an “idiom” as words collocated that became affixed to each other until metamorphosing into a fossilised term.[3] This collocation — words commonly used in a group — redefines each component word in the word-group and becomes an idiomatic expression. The words develop a specialized meaning as an entity, as an idiom. Moreover, an idiom is an expression, word, or phrase whose sense means something different from what the words literally imply. When a speaker uses an idiom, the listener might mistake its actual meaning, if he or she has not heard this figure of speech before.[4] Idioms usually do not translate well; in some cases, when an idiom is translated into another language, either its meaning is changed or it is meaningless.

updated Mar 13, 2011
posted by Sabor
just look at what deanski wrote. He explained it to me and now I get it, so... - dewclaw, Mar 13, 2011