Permission in the subjunctive

Question

OK, I'm aware that sentences like "I will permit him to come with me." is subjunctive because it is in the realm of the theoretical, thus subjunctive (he may or may not come, despite the fact that he had permission.)

But what happens to this sentence when it is in the past tense? "I permitted him to come with me." Then does it become indicitive because it is just stating a fact?

So, would it be "Permitió que le acompañaba" or "Permitió que le acompañara."?

Answer 1

I don't see any difference. With the future tense, we certainly do not know if the person actually comes or not. The same situation exists in the present tense...I am permitting him to come with me. We still do not know if he will come or not.

Nothing changes in the past tense. I permitted him to come with me. That statement by itself does not inform us of whether he actually came or not. Whether he did or not may be known, but that has nothing to do with our sentence that is not declaring whether he did or not.

I'm not saying that the past tense sentence requires the subjunctive. I'm just saying that knowing whether he comes or not may not be the critieria to base the mood on.

Once he came (the action in the subordinate clause has occurred) then the indicative must be used. The subjunctive is used for subordinate clause actions that have not occurred yet or that may never occur. So whether the subordinate verb action has occured or not may be your criteria, not if you know whether it has occurred or not.

Addendum:

I think that I did a poor job of explaining my viewpoint. Whether the subjunctive or the indicative is used depends on whether the action in the subordinate clause has occured or has not. If it has occurred, then we can make declarations about it. Ok, he came with me. I had hoped that he would come with me. Now I am declaring what my feeling were on the subject. Before he came with me I could only express my hopes or wants about what might happen.

Thanks to you too, Q. Your explanation helps too. Merry Christmas. :) - galsally, Dec 26, 2010

Answer 2

Both Pescador and Qfreed nailed it. 'Permití que me acompañaba/acompañó' is incorrect, both with imperfect and preterite, and sounds awful and confusing (it's 'me' if you say 'with me' by the way). It sounds just as awful as saying 'I permitted him he came with me'. Indicative describes actions, not possibilities.

Same with any other tense, of course. If you say 'Permito que me acompaña' it sounds as 'I will permit him he comes with me'. It's not just a cosmetic thing, it sounds utterly wrong.

Answer 3

Permitir que requires the use of the subjunctive. If the verb in the main clause is in the past then use the past subjunctive.

I should have been that blunt and said that it was just like Espero que and Esperaba/Esperé que .... The tense isn't what changes the mood. - 0074b507, Dec 24, 2010

Answer 4

It's confusing for native English speakers - I could say ' I allowed him to come with me", and he did come with me, or, as Q says, it could remain unknown whether he came with me or not..

So, if I am talking and it's known that he came with me (because I permitted him to) would I still use the past subjunctive in Spanish?

I think this is what Echo was asking, wasn't it?

I don't know if this will help, but if we change the English up a bit, it might make more sense: I permitted that could come with me, and he did. Remember Spanish requires that "that," and in the English without the that has the infinitive and with the... - webdunce, Dec 24, 2010

...that, it uses a helping verb in the conditional (neither of which is really indicative, I don't think). - webdunce, Dec 24, 2010

I meant:I permitted that *he* could come with me... - webdunce, Dec 24, 2010

And, honestly, before this thread (and maybe afterwards) I would probably have used imperfect or even present...my analyzed Spanish is very different from my "on the fly" Spanish. - webdunce, Dec 24, 2010

Yes, Sally. That's exactly what I was asking. - Echoline, Dec 24, 2010

No. As I tried to explain, it can't be said in any case. 'Le permití que me acompañaba' is grammatically unsound. A native speaker would be left wondering what you were trying to say if you come up with that. - bill1111, Dec 24, 2010

As for how would you say it ,if you knew that in the end he came with me .. one way that you could it would be: 'Le permití que me acompañara, y me acompañó' or 'Me acompañó, porque le había permitido acompañarme'.. No 'que me acompañaba' whatsoever - bill1111, Dec 24, 2010

Thanks guys, the mist is clearing! Merry Christmas. :) - galsally, Dec 26, 2010