Creating uncertainty. Future VS subjunctive

Question

It occured to me tonight that subjunctive tense doesn't really create uncertainty like I was always taught. The reason is because after que, cuando, etc.... you already know you're going to use subjunctive tense so it's really just more of a rule than an uncertainty. Future tense however is not a rule, it really does create uncertainty. Look at this example that Maria and I came up with. There is a fifteen top coming in (a table is reserved for 15 people) but I doubt it all fifteen will show up.

• Son quince. Sean quince. Serán quince.

• The first is right. There is fifteen.

• The second is wrong. There might be fifteen or so, but it's not right....subjunctive can't be used like that without broader context.
• The third is right. There could be fifteen but there might not be that many.

So you see what I mean? The subjunctive is more of a rule that you follow, it doesn't necessarily indicate uncertainty, but it follows along with it according to the rules. Future tense on the other hand doesn't follow strict rules, you are the controller and you can use it to create all kinds of uncertainty. Pretty cool huh? Just a thought.

Answer 1

The reason is because after que, cuando, etc.... you already know you're going to use subjunctive tense

Care to elaborate upon that? There are lots of cases where the indicative follow those words.

I understand your point, but you are glossing over the fact the the subjunctive is a subordinate clause phenomenona. sean by itself many not imply doubt (conjecture) like the future, but dudo que sean does. You can't separate the subordinate clause from the independent clause, but as the name implies it depends on it for meaning.

You don't really want me to answer your other question, do you?

Actually I did think that it was an interesting viewpoint. - 0074b507, May 30, 2010

But you only use subjunctive there because of the dudo que, the doubt part comes from the wording and not from the subjunctive itself like with future tense. - jeezzle, May 30, 2010

What other question are you referring to? By all means answer it. - jeezzle, May 30, 2010

The one that asked if it was a cool question. :-) - 0074b507, May 30, 2010

Without the dudo que there will be no subjunctive, you cant separate them.. You can't talk about the subjunctive without discussing what caused it to be used. - 0074b507, May 30, 2010

Answer 2

There is a fifteen top coming in (a table is reserved for 15 people)

Is this common? Very unusual sentence , never seen that before.

Why top?

Would you say "quizás sean quince" is identical to "serán quince" here then? Gracias. - jeezzle

Not the same.

"quizás sean quince" You have a reasonable doubt that that will happen, most likely there will be less

"serán quince" This does not indicated certainty, but the doubt is less intense, you are quite sure...

It's very common in restaurant language. I hadn't heard reservations called this until I started working at a restaurant either. You are quite sure, to me, means you are absolutely sure so I don't know what you mean when you say it doesn't indicate - jeezzle, May 30, 2010

certainty but doubt is less intense. Are you saying that the subjunctive one is less likely to be the full 15, and the future is more likely but still not 100 percent sure? Gracias. - jeezzle, May 30, 2010

Answer 3

The subjunctive is more of a rule that you follow, it doesn't necessarily indicate uncertainty

Of course it is not an uncertainty, we have a lot of threads about that.

The best rule was established by Lazarus:

The rule is: "if you declare, use indicative; if you don't, subjunctive". That's it.

The only trick is to understand what is a declaration, but this can be learnt even using English sentences as examples.

Read this for more info.

Answer 4

To use the subjunctive in this case, you would need to start the sentence with quizás or tal vez:

Quizás/Tal vez sean quince.

Would you say "quizás sean quince" is identical to "serán quince" here then? Gracias. - jeezzle, May 30, 2010

Here again you introduced what causes the subjunctive, not just the subject by itself. - 0074b507, May 30, 2010

You can't have the subjuctive verb without something to cause it to be used. - 0074b507, May 30, 2010

Hmm... I don't know, I gess there are subtle differences, and I haven't even studied Spanish for a year... - Issabela, May 30, 2010