No te mueras vs no mueras
No te mueras sin mi permiso. The definition for morir lists both the regular and pronomials meanings as to die. I wonder why you would use morirse here, or what the reason would be to use the non pronomial form. Gracias.
11 Answers
My grammar book A New Reference Grammar of Modern Spanish -- 4th Edition discusses, on pages 375 - 376, something called Se de matización, which basically says that adding se can add a shade of meaning to the plain verb. Apparently, this shade in meaning is not always easily translatable. This usage of se is limited to a set number of verbs, of which morir is one. The fact that se can be used this way with a particular verb also does not prevent the verb from being used pronomially in other ways.
Ironically, it bothers to discuss morir vs. morirse but says only that there is a "subtle difference of meaning" between the two forms.
Also have a look at this:
“Verbo pronominal
Verbo pronominal es el que se construye obligatoriamente con un pronombre. Hay verbos exclusivamente pronominales (arrepentirse, fugarse). Otros adoptan determinados matices significativos o expresivos en las formas reflexivas (caerse, morirse, lavarse, frente a caer, morir, lavar). (La Terminología no recoge la expresión “verbo reflexivo”, término más tradicional pero menos exacto).”
I mean, you don't die yourself, like you see yourself
Quentin, bien hecho (no es que me sorprenda ..just saying)
I seem to recall one native saying the pronomial form made it a bit more touching or personal somehow...just the sort of explanation that drives me loco. I also think the two forms are fairly interchangeable...except that morirse can also be used like our "dying for" (I'm dying for some water = Me muero por agua).
But, I hope for confirmation from a native.
Here is a quote from one of Issabela's links...
Las dos formas significan lo mismo porque nadie puede "morir la muerte de otro", todo el mundo muere su propia muerte, y cuando se dice que "alguien murió" es obvio que "se murió"
¡Excellente!
But then, from her other link...
Sin embargo, escucho más "ha muerto" que "se ha muerto" cuando es por algo natural.
...and...
También hay contextos en los que suena raro, como "murió en extrañas circunstancias" y no "se murió en extrañas circunstancias".
Also excellent...but somewhat confusing when considering the other quote I posted.
I agree with webdunce's analysis and one of the comments from the links:
... obviamente son pronombres "reflexivos" (aunque comprendo que literalmente, este no es un caso de reflexividad) y...
The reflexive pronoun is not always there to be reflexive (reflect the action back on the subject). It has many other uses that have been discussed on this site like forming a passive voice, expresing impersonal use, etc. We have also discussed pronominal meanings including shifting blame in unforeseen events (se me olividó), to suggest completeness (comerse), to detransitive a verb (hundirse), and the one that may apply here: to express suddenness or abruptness.
I read an interesting article on why ponerse gives the meaning of become from a pronominal viewpoint, but that's digressing. I would just suggest that you might look at it from a different viewpoint that morirse being reflexive and look at it as having a pronominal nuance.
I would just suggest that you might look at it from a different viewpoint that morirse being reflexive and look at it as having a pronominal nuance.
Indeed,
morir. (Del lat. vulg. mor?re, lat. mori). 1. intr. Llegar al término de la vida. U. t. c. prnl. (usado también como pronominal)
I don't think this verb is reflexive at all, the se is pronominal.
This is a good explanation of the difference:
Verbo reflexivo: El pronombre personal átono (me, te, se ...) funciona como complemento directo/indirecto. Un ejemplo: lavarse: Me [c. directo] lavo / Me [c. indirecto] lavo la cara [d. directo].
Verbo pronominal: El pronombre personal átono (me, te, se ...) es una parte del verbo (no es un complemento directo/indirecto). Un ejemplo: levantarse: Me levanto muy temprano.
Hi again Jeez
There's a whole heap of verbs that can be used regularly or reflexively and I tend to put them on one side and decide case by case which version I'm going to use. Maybe one of our grammarians will explain but it will be a first time for me if he/she succeeds.
Maybe I should ask my kids; they learnt Spanish as a first language.
morir: to die morirse: to pass away, to die
Yeah but it's not reflexive, and the guy didn't kill himself, he was shot but he died before the other guy could save him.
