HomeQ&ANo te mueras vs no mueras

No te mueras vs no mueras

3
votes

No te mueras sin mi permiso. The definition for morir lists both the regular and pronomials meanings as to die. I wonder why you would use morirse here, or what the reason would be to use the non pronomial form. Gracias.

7934 views
updated OCT 26, 2010
posted by jeezzle

11 Answers

3
votes

My grammar book A New Reference Grammar of Modern Spanish -- 4th Edition discusses, on pages 375 - 376, something called Se de matización, which basically says that adding se can add a shade of meaning to the plain verb. Apparently, this shade in meaning is not always easily translatable. This usage of se is limited to a set number of verbs, of which morir is one. The fact that se can be used this way with a particular verb also does not prevent the verb from being used pronomially in other ways.

Ironically, it bothers to discuss morir vs. morirse but says only that there is a "subtle difference of meaning" between the two forms.

updated OCT 26, 2010
edited by webdunce
posted by webdunce
2
votes

Also have a look at this:

“Verbo pronominal

Verbo pronominal es el que se construye obligatoriamente con un pronombre. Hay verbos exclusivamente pronominales (arrepentirse, fugarse). Otros adoptan determinados matices significativos o expresivos en las formas reflexivas (caerse, morirse, lavarse, frente a caer, morir, lavar). (La Terminología no recoge la expresión “verbo reflexivo”, término más tradicional pero menos exacto).”

I mean, you don't die yourself, like you see yourselfwink

Quentin, bien hechowink (no es que me sorprenda ..just sayingwink)

updated MAY 29, 2010
posted by 00494d19
I agree that whoever started calling all verbs ending in "se" reflexive verbs did a great disservice to the language. I have also seen the other extreme where only those verbs that are always pronominal are the only verbs termed pronominal verbs. - 0074b507, MAY 29, 2010
Hi Q - so which came first, "reflexive" or "pronominal". Nobody ever said "pronominal" to me when I learnt some Spanish. "Reflexive" was it. - geofc, MAY 29, 2010
2
votes

I seem to recall one native saying the pronomial form made it a bit more touching or personal somehow...just the sort of explanation that drives me loco. I also think the two forms are fairly interchangeable...except that morirse can also be used like our "dying for" (I'm dying for some water = Me muero por agua).

But, I hope for confirmation from a native.

updated MAY 29, 2010
edited by webdunce
posted by webdunce
2
votes
updated MAY 29, 2010
posted by Issabela
Great links. - webdunce, MAY 29, 2010
2
votes

Here is a quote from one of Issabela's links...

Las dos formas significan lo mismo porque nadie puede "morir la muerte de otro", todo el mundo muere su propia muerte, y cuando se dice que "alguien murió" es obvio que "se murió"

¡Excellente!

updated MAY 29, 2010
posted by webdunce
2
votes

But then, from her other link...

Sin embargo, escucho más "ha muerto" que "se ha muerto" cuando es por algo natural.

...and...

También hay contextos en los que suena raro, como "murió en extrañas circunstancias" y no "se murió en extrañas circunstancias".

Also excellent...but somewhat confusing when considering the other quote I posted.

updated MAY 29, 2010
posted by webdunce
2
votes

I agree with webdunce's analysis and one of the comments from the links:

... obviamente son pronombres "reflexivos" (aunque comprendo que literalmente, este no es un caso de reflexividad) y...

The reflexive pronoun is not always there to be reflexive (reflect the action back on the subject). It has many other uses that have been discussed on this site like forming a passive voice, expresing impersonal use, etc. We have also discussed pronominal meanings including shifting blame in unforeseen events (se me olividó), to suggest completeness (comerse), to detransitive a verb (hundirse), and the one that may apply here: to express suddenness or abruptness.

I read an interesting article on why ponerse gives the meaning of become from a pronominal viewpoint, but that's digressing. I would just suggest that you might look at it from a different viewpoint that morirse being reflexive and look at it as having a pronominal nuance.

updated MAY 29, 2010
edited by 0074b507
posted by 0074b507
1
vote

I would just suggest that you might look at it from a different viewpoint that morirse being reflexive and look at it as having a pronominal nuance.

Indeed,

morir. (Del lat. vulg. mor?re, lat. mori). 1. intr. Llegar al término de la vida. U. t. c. prnl. (usado también como pronominal)

I don't think this verb is reflexive at all, the se is pronominal.

This is a good explanation of the difference:

Verbo reflexivo: El pronombre personal átono (me, te, se ...) funciona como complemento directo/indirecto. Un ejemplo: lavarse: Me [c. directo] lavo / Me [c. indirecto] lavo la cara [d. directo].

Verbo pronominal: El pronombre personal átono (me, te, se ...) es una parte del verbo (no es un complemento directo/indirecto). Un ejemplo: levantarse: Me levanto muy temprano.

updated MAY 29, 2010
posted by 00494d19
Xaidita - Obviously I've been skipping over pronominal verbs (on my don't know list?). Now you've got me looking I can't find a definition. Please help. - geofc, MAY 29, 2010
Heidita - the dictionary refers to "pronomial" verbs although my further research suggests that this is "unusual". Can someone make a choice? - geofc, MAY 29, 2010
1
vote

Hi again Jeez

There's a whole heap of verbs that can be used regularly or reflexively and I tend to put them on one side and decide case by case which version I'm going to use. Maybe one of our grammarians will explain but it will be a first time for me if he/she succeeds.

Maybe I should ask my kids; they learnt Spanish as a first language.

updated MAY 28, 2010
posted by geofc
0
votes

morir: to die morirse: to pass away, to die

updated MAY 30, 2010
edited by purplepolish
posted by purplepolish
Incredibly, I don't think suicide is actually listed as a definition of morirse. - webdunce, MAY 29, 2010
no, not correct - 00494d19, MAY 29, 2010
More like "allow oneself to die" than "kill oneself". - geofc, MAY 29, 2010
0
votes

Yeah but it's not reflexive, and the guy didn't kill himself, he was shot but he died before the other guy could save him.

updated MAY 29, 2010
posted by jeezzle
Hi jeez - yet more research shows that some authorities class reflexive as only one of several types of "pronominal" verbs. I suspect that one class is my "don't really know" list. - geofc, MAY 29, 2010
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