A reflection about automated translators.
Hello Forum!
A few days ago there was some talk in one of the thread about just how good and useful the results from the automated translators, such as the one we have in SpanishDict are.
I have commented that I don't think it will be possible to have really good or reliable non-human translators any time soon, because the interpretation of contextual meaning, subtleties and ambiguities requires a human intelligence. AI is still far away from that goal.
However, as I see the different posts the Forum receives, I can see that the problem is compounded further by the ever increasing adoption of SMS and chat slang, which we get a lot here.
More and more people are actually communicating like that. Kids in particular routinely write in that mode. So I wonder - should the design of translator systems be based always on grammatically correct language (clearly this presents a challenge to a number of our contributors!), or should these systems allow for language drift and rapidly evolving slang?
15 Answers
As popular as chat speak, texting, etc is getting, I still think there is no substitute for correct grammar on a learning site like this.
In my opinion the translators should always provide grammatically correct translations. These sms-words or netspeak or whatever word is used for that are just a popular fashion that might fade again just as quickly as it's come up. When learning a new language it is hard enough to learn the official version and know the difference between correct language and slang language. Adding netspeak would only complicate the learning process.
Beside that, I think that adding these also means accepting them and giving them an official status. That promotes further intregration of popular speach into society and desintegration of the official language as we know it. The official version might become viewed as "difficult", "oldfashioned" and maybe even "unnecessary".
I'm all for adding those netspeak words to the dictionary though, because I think that is the correct place for them as dictionaries are supposed to represent a language in all its facets.
I checked back on this thread to find out what resolution, if any, was arrived at overnight (Philippine time).
My additional comment about this thread is just a matter of clarification on the ideas brought up to make sure that we are talking about the same things.
Going back to the original question of Gekkosan, my understanding of it was that he was talking about 2 issues. (Please correct me Gekkosan if I am wrong). The first one was about automated translators, and the second one, which perhaps needs clarification is what he was referring to in this paragraph:
However, as I see the different posts the Forum receives, I can see that the problem is compounded further by the ever increasing adoption of SMS and chat slang, which we get a lot here.
On the first issue about automated translators, my understanding of what goes on in SpanishDict (SD) is that when we press the "TRANSLATION" tab on top, we are taken to this page where we type whatever we want translated and what we get in return are translations from 3 sites - Google, Free Translation, and Babel Fish. What I believe happens there is that SD throws (I am not well versed in computer lingo so excuse my use of plain English terms) what we wanted to translate to these sites and we get their translations back. This happens so fast that I don't think there is a clearing house on what is being asked to be translated, i.e., it's a direct communication between 2 systems - SD and the translation system, e.g. Google. Nobody sees or nobody is watching what are being sent up for translation. So, as far as SMS or chat slang are concerned, at present the translation systems are handling them in their existing capacity, which would mean like "sorry, if I can't understand them, I can't translate them", and the one inquiring has no choice but to correct his own grammar or spelling to get any sensible translation back. SD, or we as a group, is just one of so many other sites that use those translation engines. At best, we at SD can make our stand, as I believe is what we are doing above, on what the standards on translations should be, but the decision and capability to act on it ultimately rest on those responsible for those translation engines, which would not be us.
I now refer to what I thought was the second issue brought up by Gekkosan. When he said that "I see the different posts...", I understood that to mean that he was referring to the "ANSWER" page of SD because as I mentioned above, I believe no one in SD sees what are being asked in the TRANSLATION page. My earlier answer was therefore referring to what gets written on the ANSWER page. I agree with those who said that SMS or chat slang is acceptable in the Comment frame since the comments are more commonly the private communication between 2 or among a few SD members reacting to an Answer. However, the main Question and the succeeding Answer(s) frames are highlighted for everyone to see. That is the part that I thought Gekkosan was referring to because it is the part that the SD community can make a decision on and act upon accordingly. Hence, I go back to my earlier "answer", which is, is it all right to use the accepted Internet abbreviations, like BTW, or other abbreviations, like ASAP, in the Question and Answer frames? Or do we want strictly correct grammar or proper English only? I believe that Emoticons are acceptable since the menu bar above already includes it.
I welcome your corrections on what I stated above.
Thank you for your time and patience in reading this.
I'll weigh in on the topic of emoticons. They are seemingly goofy and perhaps even adolescent, but I do use them. The reason is that since so much communication is now written, via emails, text, etc., the reader, unlike the listener in a conversation, is deprived of hearing the tone of voice of the speaker.
In order not to offend and just to be clearly understood, I find emoticons help me get my message across in many situations.
Thank you for all the fascinating comments and feedback. Clearly, we all seem to agree that for teaching purposes it is important to have a standard.
I found particularly interesting the comments pertaining what have been considered as "questionable" word for each generation.
However, I think that tools like chat, SMS and Twitter are opening a whole new evolutionary path for language that is much stronger, widespread and persistent than any forms of natural language drift that have appeared before. I am not so sure that this is a passing fad; rather I think maybe we are witnessing the development of a new form of communication. Abbreviated text and emoticons really appear like they are being adopted as a massively used para-language, with its own rules and conventions. Far from fading, these new constructions are growing and being adopted by an ever increasing number of new users. To the detriment of traditional grammar and literature..? What do you think?
Doesn't every generation have it's own youth language?I am for a traditional dictionary. Those cut across time.
Thank you Rikko for the detailed post.
I am in fact not trying to come up with any definitive "right" or "wrong" answers. I'm just sharing some thoughts and reflections on the subject.
Automated translators are involved simply because we can plainly see that they struggle just to provide a meaningful translation when faced with a grammatically correct statement.
So, my thinking went, if that's the state of the art today under optimal conditions, what is the impact of the "chat dialects" over the art of translation in general, and the poor translation programs in particular.
Many have chosen to consider the subject of "accepted policy" for SpanishDict regarding this, which makes the discussion more interesting and closer to home.
So what are we supposed to do when faced with a request like:
Hey Mike ? que xopa?? cool and thng like a plantin.....y tu ke.?...to kool? Estoy bien, Yo so kool and thing like a plantin too, Papi!
This is not English, nor Spanish- This is a new language, that mixes many different elements and contractions - and the kids (and many grown ups!) are using it!
There are, however, a number of "words" that for some years now have been considered as standard and accepted Internet communication terms or shorthand, e.g., "BTW" (by the way) , "BRB" (be right back), "LOL" (laughing out loud). They may still be considered as grammatically correct, but definitely not traditional. I for one have already acquired the habit of using "BTW" in emails, but would never use it on paper. Since we are using the Internet for SpanishDict, would these Internet shorthands be acceptable here or not?
Sometimes I use a translator because I do not understand some words or phrases contexts, I am Spanish and I am learning English and I live in the united states, and sometimes the translator does not offer any help, but on the contrary, for more inconprensible The text that I want to understand
I guess the emoticons have evolved because without face to face and vocal communication they fill the empty space where say a gesture, frown, shrug, etc. would be and there are timbres used to express mood which would take too long to otherwise add to the text.
In a novel you might have, she murmered, she shouted, she whispered etc but a brief message with an emoticon will convey the same stuff in a succinct way.
I still think you need to know the conventional grammar before you can play with it with any panache.
As it's a different medium it's very likely that different convenient customs will evolve.
Nevertheless, the funny thing is we got along "perfectly" without them for milennia. Now are they here to stay? Are they an integral part of our language now?
"millennia" might be a stretch (if one were talking about English; with other languages "millennia" works just fine) but "most of a millennium" is certainly accurate. Personally I have never used an emotcon and I fully expect to go to my grave without ever having done so.
Effective communication require (at least) two things; competent speakers/writers and competent listeners/readers. A failure on either side of the exchange can (probably will) result in mis-communication. Change the equation slightly and there are immediate problems. Does the speaker have the right to address himself to a particular audience (those who can/will) understand? Or is he (for some reason) obliged/required to address/tailor his remarks to all and sundry? If the audience does not recognize sarcasm/irony without the benefit of emotcons, whose problem is it?
Perhaps, all utterances (as is done with TV programs) should be preceded by a disclaimer ("This is intended for competent language users only; those with rudimentary language skills are advised to watch 'Sesame Street', instead", or some such).
I suspect that the use of emotcons is an outgrowth of American sitcoms with laugh tracks. The presumption being that most viewers will fail to recognize that something is supposed to be funny unless they have some additional (and unambiguous) indication that they are expected to laugh.
Yesero said:
I still think there is no substitute for correct grammar on a learning site like this.
Exactly!
Chicasabrosa said:
These sms-words or netspeak or whatever word is used for that are just a popular fashion that might fade again just as quickly as it's come up.
So true.
Dear all,
I want to thank everyone who expressed an opinion and provided feedback for this post. I have "accepted" one answer simply because it got the most votes, and somehow seems to reflect the general feeling behind most answers.
Nevertheless, this is intended as an open discussion, and there are no right and wrong answers.
Someone suggested privately that I follow up with a thread on the subject of language evolution, which is really what sits at the core of my original reflection. Most likely I will do so at some point.
Meanwhile, I am just grateful for all the wisdom and thoughtful insight provided by all the posts that have been made for this "question".
Cheers!
I myself am guilty of using slang, but I try to make sure that slang doesn't dictate all that I do. Standard language is very important, and I am probably younger than all the people who have posted so far, but I believe that proper language is always needed in life: in job interviews, when writing letters by hand (although I suppose the letter writing days are long gone with the arrival of email) and other important occasions. But, the question remains, what is slang and why do people choose to use it?
Slang is a modern 'language', very changeable, which is, in the most cases, made and used by the young generations. During the past years every generation had its own slang. That was their language, their own mark. People use it in order not to be different from their society. That characteristic, being a part of the environment, is in human nature and I’m afraid it is quite hard to resist it. Slang easily becomes a part of your life and you just become a person who cannot even remember when the changing of vocabulary started.
But, years will pass and they will bring a new language shape. Maybe some day “cool” will be completely expelled from modern English language, or…it will be replaced with some new popular word with two “o”s.
You just never know…
As part of a standard translator no but ........
Maybe a separate translator could be developed.
One that looked at BTW and LOL etc.- recognized them and then translated to what they stand for and then maybe provided an equivalent in the other language.
