Did ancient Aztecs "vivían" or "vivieron" ?

Question

Gurus

My girlfriend gave me this spanish children's book about Mexico called "Conoce México". It's cute and fairly ok for my current beginner level. However, today I ran into a page talking about the ancient cultures and (surprise) I'm not following the mix of past and imperfect. Here my issue. Page 1

"En la tierra vivían grupos de nativos." (Imperf) "Ellos estudiaban matemáticas y las estrellas." (Imperf)

But then

"Constryeron palacios de piedra inmensos." (Pret.) "Los olmecas, los mayas y los aztecas fueron grandes civilizaciones." (Pret.)

And the best for last

"Los olmecas fueron uno de los primeros pueblos nativos que vivieron en México."

My problem ?

Why did they "used to" live, grow food and study math and stars but "built" great palaces ? Why did all ancients "use to live" on earth but the Olmecas "were" one of the first natives who "lived" ?

Does it have anything to do with being dead now ? If so don't see how we can use imperative at all for these ancients since they are all dead now for sure. My spanish buddy says "3 years ago I lived over there" is "Hace 3 años vivía en aquella casa" I fI said "Hace 3 años viví en aquella casa" He'd think I'm dead now. So then why use Imperfect with ancients at all ?

Answer 1

I agree with Volpon, very nice question! However I think the way those verbs were used makes sense. Consider some basics from the reference section on Imperfect and Preterit:

"The imperfect tense (el imperfecto) is one of the several past tenses in Spanish. It is used mainly to describe past habitual actions or to set the scene in the past."

"The imperfect verb is interrupted by a preterit verb."

"The preterit tense (el pretérito) ... is used to describe actions completed at one point in the past or that lasted a specific amount of time in the past and are now completed."

About your examples you might say "Well, it was hundreds of years ago, of course it is now completed!" But the 'completed in the past' explanation is only part of the way to think of it. It is also important to think of whether the actions were "past habitual actions or to set the scene in the past", and also that "the imperfect verb is interrupted by a preterit verb." For that reason, the context of an entire paragraph may need to be considered in order to determine which form is appropriate.

But even without knowing that context, look at the sentences again:

"En la tierra vivían grupos de nativos."

Groups of natives were living in the land. (setting the scene.)

"Ellos estudiaban matemáticas y las estrellas."

They were studying mathematics and the stars. (past habitual actions) You might also think of it as: "They were people who studied..."

"Construyeron palacios de piedra inmensos."

They constructed immense palaces of stone. (completed at one point in the past) It would be correct to use the imperfect and say "Construían palacios de..." if it were setting the scene for something else that was happening at the same time. "Construían palacios durante el período en que el rey..."

Los olmecas, los mayas y los aztecas fueron grandes civilizaciones."

The Olmecas, the Mayans and the Aztecs were great civilizations. (lasted a specific amount of time in the past and are now completed.) But here again, the imperfect might have been used if, in the context, it was setting the scene: "Cuando eran grandes civilizaciones, la gente..."

"Los olmecas fueron uno de los primeros pueblos nativos que vivieron en México."

The Olmecas were one of the first native peoples that lived in Mexico. (lasted a specific amount of time in the past and are now completed)

It would be good to read over those reference sections again. (It sure helped me just now!) But in the end, practice in conversing with native speakers will 'tune your ears' so that the two forms will begin to sound right or wrong.

And hopefully there will be more answers from others that will help to clarify the issue (and correct any mistakes I may have made in my explanations.)

Answer 2

I think, in this case, the used to (habitual past actions) works best for the imperfect and the preterite is just good ol' simple past. The preterite is not interrupting anything and the imperfect is not setting a scene. That is for constructions like, I was watching TV (imperfect) when the power went out (preterite).

Here it is just a list of facts about things the natives used to do (habitually) and things they did (but not habitually).

Natives used to live in the land. They used to study mathematics and the stars. They built great stone palaces. The Olmecas, the Mayans and the Aztecs were great civilizations. The Olmecas were one of first native peoples to live in the land (that lived in the land).

But, yes, it takes mental gymnastics for the brain to work out the tense (for us beginners).

Well, I take it back a bit, there's not interruption, but we do usually put the used-tos first, I think...so it may be a scene setting thing goning on there. - webdunce, Jan 24, 2010

Answer 3

Thank you guys for this great breakdown ! This forum rules !

My head is hurting from reading it but I'll have to read it a few times. The trouble is very often to recognize when a scene is being set or when the preterit interrupts the imperfect.

As for the comments I'm flattered but I don't get how one can learn a language without analyzing the hell out of it and ask these questions. That is how I learned English 15 years ago and I guess I don't know any other way.

You guys are troopers !

Answer 4

Excellent question, fine analysis. But as a writer, I suspect that the author didn't have a good editor.

Maybe as simple as that?

And, Lord knows, writers can't be trusted without a good editor!

It's hard to believe, Stucky, that you are a beginner in Spanish. With this fine analysis, I expect that Spanish will be a snap as you head toward your 3rd language. - 0057ed01, Jan 23, 2010