Change pronoun L to S? Confused About this Grammar problem.

Question

So the sentence is:

José les tira las serpentinas a ellos.

Putting in the direct object pronoun, which is las in this case, I have:

José les las tira.

And since there can't be double l's, I have:

José ses las tira.

But in lesson 2.3, the answer is:

José se las tira.

I don't understand why because isn't "se" for le singular? Not for les, plural??

Thanks in advance!

(This issue threw me off tremendously. )

Edited title for clarity and to aid future searches - Goyo, Dec 31, 2009

Gracias! - lindaestudiante, Dec 31, 2009

Answer 1

Hi Linda,

The video in lesson 2.3 says something quite confusing, if not completely wrong.

One does not change the L in Les to an S.

Rather, any pronoun beginning with L just simply becomes "se" in that instance.

It is spelled out very clearly in this article from the Reference Section.

¡Buena suerte!

Answer 2

yeah, in this lesson it explains that SE doesn't not become anything other than a pronoun that is used to complete transitive action......he nicely lists 9 situations which explains.....

However, now that this is all coming back to me....I remember a sequence we were taught in order to remember in which order. it was 'I do' as in the answer to "do you take....lawfully wedded spouse?"

IOPs precede DOPs, but I can’t remember where the negative goes…in front, right? i.e. Mis padres no se las dejan so it’s not really an effective sequence…..becuase than it’s either ‘No, I do’ vs. ‘I do not’ (vs. 'No I don't')

Answer 3

If I remember right in these cases, the indirect object becomes a reflexive pronoun, the only reflexive pronouns are me, te, se, nos, vos, & se with se being used either for singular or plural (Se duermen a las siete = they fall asleep at 7) I may be wrong about the second person plural, it's been awhile since I've used vosotros

correction: vos is NOT a reflexive pronoun, it should be 'os' - bdclark0423, Dec 31, 2009

and the se as an i.o.p. is not a reflexive pronoun any more than sé the verb is. - 0074b507, Dec 31, 2009

Answer 4

the indirect object becomes a reflexive pronoun, the only reflexive pronouns are me, te, se, nos, vos, & se with se being used either for singular or plural

"se" is not, inherently, a reflexive pronoun. It can be used in reflexive constructions (as can the other pronouns that you mentioned [with the possible exception of "vos" {I don't use the "voseo" and I'm not clear about all of the usages}]). All of those pronouns can also be D.O. or I.O pronouns.

There is an unfortunate tendency among textbooks (especially those aimed at people learning Spanish) to label all occurrences of "se" as "reflexive". The advantage of this practice is that it simplifies the terminology. The disadvantage is that the simplification is purchased at the expense of clarity and accuracy. There is no reasonable definition of "reflexive" that covers all the uses of "se" in Spanish (except for the tautologous "se=reflexive" and that's not very reasonable).