Has anyone noticed a decline in proper editing?
A while back,we had several discussions about the proper way to edit posts. There were some who felt that at times, corrections were a bit harsh. We then agreed to continue correcting, but to do so in a friendlier manner.
I have found that I have been very negligent to encourage people to use proper spelling, grammar and punctuation since that time. It seems like many of us have done the same. I was wondering if anyone else noticed that too many posts are slipping by without correction?
Is there a way we can establish a better balance between somewhat harsh and abrupt correction and leniency? 
I always struggle with the fear of discouraging someone who is just starting out vs. frustrating those who will never learn proper English or Spanish from this site without these necessary corrections.
Has anyone else noticed this?
46 Answers
I have been following this thread off and on for most of the day and I just wanted to address a few things. First....
Volpon.....I'm not sure if anyone ever welcomed you here when you first started posting on the forum, but if not...let me be the first to say: Welcome!!!
Seriously, the tone of your posts has seemed (to my eyes) to reflect a strong feeling of exclusion, and I for one have no desire what-so-ever to make you, or anyone else for that matter, feel this way. I don't know if you are lumping me in with "the clique," but I sure hope that you are because I enjoy being part of the SpanishDict clique. Personally, I enjoy the family-like atmosphere that is present on the forum, and for anyone who is reading, please don't misinterpret my meaning - I want that everybody here enjoy themselves, learn from this site, and feel included in "the family" here at SpanishDict. I want everyone here to be part of "the clique." Just like all families, there are bound to be disagreements and sometimes misunderstandings, but please don't have hard feelings when someone disagrees with your take, opinion or understanding of something. Please don't feel jumped on. Please don't feel excluded. Recognize it for what it is - a disagreement. Nothing more, nothing less. So please...come on and join the clique, the family, the community or whatever you wish to call it. You are welcome, and so is anyone else who cares to be a part of the SpanishDict community. So for you, and anyone else who is listening, but feels left out:
We are ALL Friends Here, and You Are Just as Welcome as Anyone Else.
Zoltan....Let me just say that I have read many of your posts in the past, and I (as I'm sure many others do) appreciate, value and look forward to your contributions. Personally, and especially on issues of grammar or the finer subtleties of the language, I actually like having redundant posts and additional information that is provided by each person's own unique explanation of an issue. Even if the next person to post does not have anything new to add, it's always nice to have corroboration. I sometimes read threads on other language forums, and when I do, I don't always have the luxury of knowing what skill level a poster may be at, and it is always nice to find posts where others have backed-up what someone else has said (especially if they present the information in their own words or offer their own take or offer outside references). I think that Chaparrito has spoken to exactly how I feel on the matter:
Zoltan, I would love to hear what you would have said on any number of questions where you had instead deleted your well composed reply.
Nicole...this was a wonderful idea for a thread (as usual) and as far as the issue of editing posts is concerned, I agree with you that proper grammar and spelling in posts is an important feature to forums dedicated to learning a language. If grammar and spelling are used incorrectly, people who come here to learn may mistakenly model their use of the language on the faulty grammar/spelling exhibited by others to the detriment of there own understanding. At the same time, I also agree that it should be handled as tactfully and politely as possible. Not everyone likes to be corrected and not everyone is coachable, but I for one would be extremely upset if I were to find out that the entire time that I had been using this site, every post that I had read and had modeled my understanding of the Spanish language on had been incorrect in spelling or grammar at every second or third word. This is what many of the posts offer to someone learning English, and I don't think that is fair. On this I agree with Issa that those who stick around long enough come to realize that many of the people who use this site regularly are serious in there desire to learn another language and out of respect or possibly conformity they will begin to ensure that their own posts contain properly formed sentences. The rest, as she has alluded to, are probably just passing through anyway. It is strange to me that anyone who visits a language learning site would be taken aback by the fact that their post had been edited to reflect the rules/guidelines of the forum or the rules/guidelines of proper Spanish/English. The only thing that I am concerned about (like yourself) is that it be done as politely and as kindly as possible. But the fact remains that it should be done.
Again, thanks Nicole for such an interesting thread, and thanks everyone else for contributing to such an interesting thread. Again, Volpon....please, jump on in and join the family, and that goes for anyone else interested in joining this wonderful community of learning. Again, Zoltan please do not withhold what I am sure would be wonderful contributions to the site. And again...forgive my for my verbosity. It's a curse and a condition with which I struggle each day. Thanks everyone for your patience. 
Well, I am a new member on this site, but I have grown to love it very quickly. I agree that it can be difficult to fell like you fit into the "clique" when you first start on this site. I have asked lots of questions about culture or about things I really wanted to receive different opinions on. I found myself discouraged very quickly, when I would get only 1 answer to a question, or the question would not be answered the way I was looking for. I looked at other people who posted a question just like mine, and they would get 25 answers, and I wondered what I was doing wrong to only get 1 answer. Maybe I'm the only one who has felt this way, but I definitely struggled to feel like I was accepted into the "clique".
Also, I wanted to say that I am very thankful for all of you that put in the time to edit or advise people to edit their posts. I have had several times in which I make a silly mistake in my question that I didn't even realize was there. I pride myself in being very good in English and being known as a very eloquent speaker in my school. I appreciate being corrected.
One thing I may advise - When you post a comment that mentions an error in their post, if they correct those errors, you should delete your comment. Otherwise it is distracting to read other people's posts and be trying to figure out what is wrong with it.
Again, thanks for all the hard work you all put in to make this website wonderful.
Wouldn't it be nice to make someone else the ogre or the bridge troll.
For a period of weeks, I felt like the meanest man on the web site. My criticisms and suggestions were rebuffed and reviled by long established members. It lead me to create a list of reference articles which many people supported at the time. But, now I feel it was all window dressing. My articles are forgotten and relegated to the arcane history file. No authoritative member, mentor, moderator, or respected critic has used them as support or reference for suggestions to new or errant members.
Before you read any more of this plea, look at these articles I wrote:
Internet Searches, and
I am the only person, to the best of my knowledge, who has ever used these links to give suggestions and direction to other users. I have been disappointed by this disuse and avoidance, I have also been reluctant to refer to them all by myself and without the support of others.
Here is how I thought they might be used. Suppose a new member poses a question that is in all lower case and without capitalizing "I"'s or the use of periods and end of sentence markers. I thought a mentor might reply:
Hola, newmember. Welcome to the forum. Here is the reply to your question: "xxx yyy zzz".
Welcome to the Forum at SpanishDict.com. Please have a look at our Welcome page at Welcome Page.
Also for any future questions you might like to ask, please keep in mind our practices and guidelines spelled out here Forum Entries.
We hope you enjoy all the time you spend here in the Forum and we want to know that other members are here to help you whenever they can. Once again, welcome to the forum and just enjoy your time here.
The thing is, it is Moe's name that appears on the Reference Articles. It's Moe who is the ogre. The person writing such a reply is not the troll, Moe is the bad guy. but, that's OK. It's indirect. There is no real hit and no-one is going to go gunning for Moe.
Try it. Refer to my articles but remain the nice person required to do this and using these very stuffy and formal rules because you are required to.
I suggest this will restore a feeling of good editing while maintaining the feel of good relations and welcome openness.
Well. it's one idea. Why not try it??
Thank you so much for all of the great responses. I know that some have apologized to me personally because they felt their answers got us off track. However, I consider the entire discussion to be related. What started as concern for the integrity of the site (as far as editing is concerned), allowed us to see that the way we communicate with each other in the forum is extremely important. Everyone here has feelings. I think what sets this site apart from others, is the fact that the members here seem to continually evaluate the way we relate with each other. There are important rules which need to be followed, but even as parents or teachers strive to implement rules in a meaningful way, this site does as well.
Two things really stood out to me. The first was the fact that Paralee has been treated horribly by certain individuals. To me, this is unthinkable. Paralee, you are such a great teacher and I hope you know the majority can not say enough good things about you!!!!
Secondly, I am realizing that some may feel left out (at least in the beginning) when they see some of us joking with each other and communicating as friends. For anyone who feels that way, I just want to encourage you that in no time, you too will be a part of the banter. In fact, when I saw people teasing each other, having fun and even complimenting each other, it drew me back again and again in the beginning. In fact, the first time Heidi commented on one of my answers, it was as if the Queen of Spain herself had held out her scepter to me! 
I was shocked that she even knew I existed.
This is a very friendly and welcoming site. I have seen people who are relatively new to the forum have posts with dozens and dozens of answers recently. There is no elite percentage or clique. There may be a few of us crazy people who are on the forum more often than others, but other than that, all are appreciated and needed equally!
Muchas gracias, abrazos, Nicole
Thanks, all, for the candid, thoughtful, illuminating, and kind responses to a "rude" observation I posted regarding a "clique."
When I posted, I did so with some hesitation, because it was only partially related to Nicole's original question. I knew it might provoke a "kerfluffel," and it did, but the responses prove to me that dissonant opinions are welcomed on this forum.
Meanwhile, the responses caused me to do some soul-searching as to how I can be more supportive to new users who take that first tentative step to risk a question.
I like, and have adopted "Yesero's Rule," which is to first read the profile. Doing so often gives insight as to what need prompted the question. (There's no better teaching moment than a need expressed.)
Sometimes that's very hard to do when the question is riddled with errors. But what's most important is to make the questioner feel welcomed and valued.
There is almost universal agreement on that in most of the posts I've read here.
I particularly liked an example posted by Heidita: It's an excellent model that balances a welcome with a light-hearted correction:
HI tynei, welcome to the forum.
Don't forget to use correct spelling on your posts the next time.
Your sentence in Spanish:
I and Mary are going to the movie.
María y yo vamos al cine.
I guess you wanted to say her name first??
That sure made me smile, and I'm betting tynei smiled, too.
Finally, there's no "clique" here. Just folk eager to help new learners.
Like me.
Get real, folks! Let's just acknowledge that there's a clique here that more or less runs the Questions and Answers Show. Get on their wrong side or challenge them, and you're off to Netherland!
I'd like to comment on the original topic of this thread, but I think this needs to be addressed first.
Volpan, I'm really sorry you feel that way, and I think you are completely wrong. This site doesn't have a buddy list- we're all in this together, so there can't be the clique that you speak of.
Those of us who are very active really enjoy being helpful to others. And most of us have figured out that by helping others learn we help ourselves learn as well.
Now on to the topic at hand-
I agree with Nicole, and have also noticed lately that the pendulum seems to have swung pretty far. Is it too far? That I don't know, but trust he admins to help us know one way or the other. This is just like a thermostat in an office building- some people are hot, and some people are cold, and you can never make all of them happy. So somebody has to make the decision that it will be set at a certain level and that's the way it is.
As for Moe's post- I so appreciate what Moe has taken the time to do for us. I believe that I have linked to some of that material, though like Sheila I think I've misplaced it. Since we tend to say the same things time and again, having something well written that one can paste in is really helpful.
And now my own pet peeve- Capitalization I've been at such a loss as to what to do with these people that don't type with capital letters! My own pendulum swings all over the map on this one. It's such an annoyance to correct a person's post, and honestly some are probably offended by it. But it is a rule here, and a darn good one. What in the world can we do about that?
First, I want to apologise to Moe. I greatly admired all the hard work he did to produce those articles, and in future, I will try to remember to use them. I am going to place a file on my desktop with all the relevant shortcuts in it, so I can find them quickly when I need them.
Then, I have to say that I find striking the right balance with this very difficult at times.
A while ago, I was very stern with a girl that I felt was not trying to help herself. I grumbled at her quite strongly, and, afterwards, felt very sorry that I might have discouraged her. So I sent her a private message trying to explain that I was only doing it for her own good, only to find that, far from being the lazy college student I had assumed her to be, she was a woman of my age, struggling to learn English just as I am struggling to learn Spanish!
However, she was vey understanding, and we have corresponded, and corrected one another's mistakes, ever since!
Hi everyone, I'm sorry I missed logging on today, because I found this thread really interesting. As one of the "new" people (since about a month ago) I will say that initially it was my impression that there was a small group that ran the show. It took quite a bit of lurking to realize that this wasn't really true, and a couple of weeks to get comfortable with the idea of posting answers even though I'm not fluent and sometimes mess things up. I still find it hard to initiate questions or activities.
I hope everyone realizes what a wonderful thing you have going here -- I have been a member of many forums for many different reasons, and this is one of the VERY best. It looks good, it works well, the answers come fast, the discussions are interesting, the people are knowledgeable, and there's always something new to try (word of the day, picture of the day, translations, writing prompts). I can only think of one other forum that comes close. I study Arabic as well, and I would give an arm and a leg (or a kidney and a pancreas!) to have a site like this in Arabic.
So, yes, the newer friendlier policy is good. Perhaps there would be some way to put up a message box when a person posts for the first time requesting proper sentences structure etc. But mostly, try to encourage and reach out to new posters, and thanks to everyone who did that for me!
Volpon said:
But it is disappointing that so few become actively involved as posters of questions...
I'm actively involved, so I guess you'd call me part of the "clique."
My question to anyone who wants to be part of the SpanishDict community: Why not stop complaining and start participating?
It's both fun and free!
I guess that those users who decide to stay with us longer, start paying attention to the spelling sooner or later. And the common passers-by, well, they just don't care.
I have two things to say about this:
This site needs more members therefore I think being less strict with our "newer" members is not such a bad idea. How many of us click on the "hot" button waiting for new answers to arrive because we have simply nothing better to do? (I know I occasionaly do). The truth is that some of our newer members are actually fluent, and as few of us as there are I would hate to push them away. I personally have never corrected or edited anyone's post. I wouldn't be above it in an extreme situation but I would rather tell someone in a comment that something is wrong rather then correct it myself and risk offending them.
I don't think anyone disrespects you Moe, but the truth is that reading reference articles is boring. I am a 35 year old man and I don't like to read the reference articles......just think about what an 18 year kid is gonna feel like if he is told to "go read this reference article". Sometimes you want a simple fix that doesn't involve trudging through an article. I respect and value the fact that you have put so much effort into making this site a better place but the truth is that if I have a question, I really want an answer........not a link to an article.
Having said that, I personally think that this site is heading in a better direction and not a worse one. I value our newer members and I respect everyone's educated opinion. As for the uneducated ones? I would rather have a huge basket of mostly good apples then a tiny basket of perfect ones.
Hola Volpon,
I have such great respect for you, after seeing this:
Thanks, all, for the candid, thoughtful, illuminating, and kind responses to a "rude" observation I posted regarding a "clique."
It was a downer yesterday to think that you thought of this site as having a "clique". Others even shared your sentiment. I think you are a stand-up person to admit that what you said was "rude". I don't think I have ever seen anyone react in such a humble and honest way here before.
I am truly glad that you have had a change of heart. Having you as someone who will encourage newcomers will be amazing.
It is ironic that yesterday's post was about editing. Although I was referring to the spelling and grammar, you have proven that we all need to "edit" our thoughts and attitudes on occasion. We are all guilty at times, of looking at things the wrong way. But you are truly an inspiration for how encouraging it is for others when we "edit" and improve the way we think about things.
Muchas gracias mi amigo,
Nicole
I too notice that things are going in a different direction than when I first signed on.These discussions are interesting to me since this site is open to the internet universe.The idea of policing such a diverse population boggles my mind.Even with the swing, things go pretty pretty well considering we are dealing with The Universe..
One thing I noticed recently is editing for the generic grammar, punctuation etc and have it reversed for reasons unclear to me.It is not important enough to me to bother with though. I was following the model set forth to me on some of my early posts.
I noticed some kind of popularity edge when I first came here but I think if you just act like you have as much right to be here as anyone else, then here you are.People who have put the time and effort to being skilled with grammar and etymology will automatically be more " popular" and should be. Who cares who gets the most stars folks? They are just electromagetic energy grouped in such a way we see a yellow image with 5 points. This same energy can be rearranged to another image and have a different meaning.We just have to be sure of what we gain and offer here independant of the stars/Stars.
I think Issabella makes a good point. If people value the site over time they will learn the customs here or they will move on.I will probably be making fewer of the basic corrections I make if they are reversed.
The frequency of these dicussions is a good thing. It shows how people value this site which is a good thing.
Voplpon said
Get real, folks! Let's just acknowledge that there's a clique here that more or less runs the Questions and Answers Show. Get on their wrong side or challenge them, and you're off to Netherland!
Hi Volpon
I, and I suspect other members would like you to elaborate on your above remarks. If you don't want to do it on the open forum then please forward Heidi or me a pm.
Excellent question, Nicole. Since nobody posting on this site has any personal knowledge of anyone else who is posting on the site, it will always be a guessing game as to the intent of the poster.
Moe's reference articles are excellent. On the other hand, if the poster struggles with grammatical concepts, a reference article may not be of help.
Possibly the poster could be directed to a reference article, with the suggestion that the person repost the question if he still has a question after reading the reference article?
Regarding proper grammar, punctuation, etc., it does not seem unreasonable to reject "chat spelling" since this is a language learning site. Clearly a person who is learning a language may make errors, but those errors are different than "chat abbreviations".
As in all things in life, there will never be a perfect balance. We must all keep in mind that at any given time everyone is doing the best they can.
