Informal Plural
To a native english person the idea of having an informal part to the general verb conjugation is alien. Especially today, when there is very little formality in English daily life. And yet the concept exists in all the European languages I know anything about (not many, it's true!).
Still, the idea of using 3rd person endings instead of 2nd person for formal speech does have a parallel in English -
'Would sir/madam like to try it on?'
Formal speech avoids addressing a person directly. Español uses verb endings; inglés has an aversion to these and uses pronouns instead. But the underlying concept is the same.
Ok, where is this going? It's the plural I am intrigued about. Generally I read that the 2nd person plural is only used in Spain itself; American Spanish does not use the vosotros part of the conjugation. So does this mean that in the Americas
- no distinction is made between formal and informal when speaking to a group or
- addressing a group is always considered to be a formal activity.
I'm interested in any comments around this topic to help a poor englishman understand!
3 Answers
I can offer the following: It is also useful to be aware of just where and why "Usted" and "vosotros" even exist in castellano.
(I don't understand why paragraphs are not breaking; if so, I apologize, it's not me! I promise!) This is a cultural situation of language conventions that evolved over time as a process of the Enlightment changes in society, but in especial regarding the social formations that occurred in Latin America after the Independencia.
Note, first, that Usted is capitalized, vosotros is not. Historically, "Usted" comes from the medieval contraction in written form of "Vuestra merced." Note also that vosotros is a compound: vos+otros. All of you, collectively, as a single entity.
Prior to about the 15th century, Usted and tú did not even exist except in very rare circumstances, only vosotros and vos. Vos, singular, vosotros, plural. Tu is a form that directly comes from Latin; Usted and vosotros/vos does not. Vosotros and vos was an appellation used when addressing any person of the nobility, who is always addressed in the plural, regardless, but most especially, royalty.
In writing, the shorthand Vuestra merced became Ust'd, where the "U" was the written "slipping" appearance of the Latin 'V', which in Latin is a "u" sound, and migrated into common speech as a changeling, u or vee sound changing according to region (Languedoc vs Castilla-Aragón, for example). Westra merced became Vuestra merced; but remained pronounced as Usted. The written acquired, over time, a literal "vee" sound, 'Vuestra merced.' --> Ust' + 'ed, where the single-quote indicates contraction (not a poorly typed accent mark) denoted by a tllde, dot, or diacritic, until the marks just stopped being written and became Usted, and then even further shortened (abbreviated) to just Ud and Uds when in writing. (Shorthand is useful when rapidly writing a dictation with an inky quill; the Romans did it, and so did everyone else.)
However, in court, you addressed persons of aristocratic rank as 'vosotros' while in the singular, as Usted, written and verbal. (The archaic conventions of the "royal We.") Vuestra merced became Usted, which is why in written form (orthography), Usted is capitalized unto this day at any location within a sentence. One does not write, "¿De dónde viene usted?" (for to do that would be to demote Usted from its "proper" indicator of formal social position) although that is changing too.
In Latin America, children refer to parents or older persons as "Usted," and many people are known to mix the Usted with the tu among peers in cases such as when addressing a girlfriend or boyfriend respectfully. It is a social convention. Dropping to tu, or vos (as follows), is used interchangedly when not emphasizing an interchange with a special, or "very special," person of your life.
That is the Usted portion.
Vosotros derives from the rural convention shift in the mid-17th to 18th century of referring to a familiar (not familial, though also that/they as well {g}) in terms of "vos" which inverted the prior, very formal purpose of the vosotros.
Prior to this, Spain still adhered to the vosotros as strictly a formal case, in situations of formality, used only when addressing important persons, and not "unimportant" persons. With the advent of democratization, Europe, and Spain, de-escalated forms of address in social contexts. Any and every aristocrat was automatically vosotros; non-aristocrats of social standing were optionally vosotros, depending on how deferent one sought to be. Vosotros is a construct of social deference; of politeness. It should be easy to see, then, that it became adopted as the preferred address in the rural setting in order to turn tables upon the privileged setting of vosotros in social hierarchy. Thus, everyone and anyone deserved to be addressed as vosotros, which is a function of societal democratization.
As has been said elsewhere, 'vosotros' is the continental Spanish convention; it is not used anywhere in Latin America.
Tú is indeed used in Latin America. Tú is an intermediate familiar format; vos is more respectful than tú. (In some "polite" circles, using tu is even considered vulgar. Or was; not any longer.) In Latin America, the 'vos' format became almost universally predominant in all speech patterns because persons of direct continental Spanish descent could occupy formally-addressed social and administrative positions; criollos could not. Everyone else was, and is, criollo, and Usted was adopted as the very-formal, respectful address throughout Latin America, while vos is the familiar. It conjugates as vos sos, not sois. In Latin America, 'vos' completely drops the "eye" of the 'eis/ais' endings: vos sos, not vosotros sois.
In sum, Spain evolved the vosotros as the informal form of address between peers, while Latin America evolved the 'vos' form of address. That said, not all Latin American regions or countries use the 'vos'; many favor only the tú. This is regional, or dialectical (in accordance to dialect and local preferences).
I'm of South America.
You had have breakfast already? ¿Ustedes han desayunado ya? Is not formal. But if you are talking in a formal way it doesn't sound unrespecful.
"Ustedes" is the only way to talk to second person plural - "Vosotros" is not used (only in Spain).
Hi Jespa, not really the case:
- no distinction is made between formal and informal when speaking to a group or
- addressing a group is always considered to be a formal activity.
Thing is, in those countries, the formal version of the verb is even used among family members. I have heard Cubans address their children:
¿Ustedes han desayunado ya?
So it is clear that the distinction for them is purely "personal" if I may say so,
In Spain,we use the vosotros part it would sound rather odd if you addressed your children with Usted.
However, the rural form of Usted addressing parents still persists in some areas. I have heard:
Madre, ¿está Usted cómoda?
So that sounds weird too.
