HomeQ&AThose darn prepositions! This can't be right.

Those darn prepositions! This can't be right.

2
votes

I am in lesson 2.3, which says:

Change each of these sentences to shorter versions using direct and indirect object pronouns. For example, "María me da las luces a mí" becomes, "María me las da." 1. José les tira las serpentinas a ellos. 2. Manuel le da un perrito a su hermana. 3. Celia apaga las velas del pastel de cumpleaños.

So for #1 I said it would be José ses les tira. But the site says it should be José se las tira"

Why would that be? The Indirect Object for ellos is les. Changing the L to S gives one ses, not se. What am I missing?

Then for #2, something similar happens! I said Manuel se lo da. But the site says it should be Manuel se la da.

La?!? For un perrito? Can somebody please explain this?

3116 views
updated JUN 4, 2012
edited by Goyo
posted by Goyo

9 Answers

0
votes

Yes, I am very sorry I made such a confusing statement as "change the L to an S." The rule is if there are 2 object pronouns that begin with L, change the first one to SE. "Ses" does not exist. Thank you very much for bringing this to my attention. I will find a way to correct the video.

updated AGO 11, 2009
posted by Paralee
Evidently you didn't read my post. Look here for RAE's official definition of "ses": http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltConsulta?TIPO_BUS=3&LEMA=ses - hhmdirocco, AGO 8, 2009
Lo siento, hhmdirocco. I did not see that part of your post. It is interesting that "ses" is that final part of an intestine, isn't it? So, I ammend my statement to "ses" does not exist as a pronoun. Thank you for your input. - Paralee, AGO 11, 2009
4
votes

Whenever an indirect object pronoun beginning with "l" (le, les) and a direct object pronoun beginning with "l" (lo, la) appear together, the IOP changes to "se", because of the difficulty/awkwardness of saying "le lo, le la, les lo, or les la". You do not simply change the "l" to an "s"... It is always "se". Also, the DOP that would replace "las serpentinas" is "las". "Les" does not work... It is the third person plural INdirect object pronoun.

In regards to your second question, the site made a mistake. "Un perrito" is masculine, so the DOP that would replace it is "lo". Thus, it should be "Se LO da" not "Se la da".

updated AGO 7, 2009
posted by Nick-Cortina
2
votes

If Paralee says that, then she is wrong. What Nick has said is correct.

You don't just "change an l to an s." To me, that is a silly (not to mention, incorrect) way to explain it. It becomes a totally different word. That would be like saying, "In English, anytime we have a subjective case, third person, personal pronoun, like "he," and we want to change it to the first person plural (we), just change the h to w." Well, that might work with the masculine (he), but would "she" then become "swe"? Why be so complicated?? Just say, "It becomes "we." End of conversation.

That is what has happened here, and that is why you have ended up with "ses," which is defined in Spanish as, "Extremo final del intestino" (RAE).

Whenever you have appearing together an indirect object pronoun (IOP) in the third person (him, her, it, them), which would be, as has been mentioned, one that starts with "l" (le, les), and a direct object pronoun (DOP) in the third person (him, her, it, them), which also starts with "l" (lo, los, la, las), the IOP becomes "se," and it always precedes the DOP. It's that simple; no changing letters.

As Nick mentioned, this is to avoid the confusion caused by saying something like, "Él le la lava." So, "He washes it (feminine noun) for him/her/them" becomes, "Él se la lava."

We do something similar with these pronouns in English. For example:

We gave Mike the bill. (OK.)

We gave him the bill. (OK.)

We gave him it. (NO.)

We gave it him. (NO.)

We gave it to him. (OK. Here we convert the indirect object to a prepositional phrase, to avoid this awkward sound of back-to-back pronouns.)

.

Be advised that many native Spanish speakers that I have come across confuse this rule. They replace the DOP (instead of the IOP) with se, apparently thinking that the remaining "l"-pronoun must match the gender of its antecedent, and they reverse the order (placing the DOP before the IOP). This can be very confusing, because it makes it hard to figure out what they're trying to say. Let me illustrate:

Entrega la cuenta a Miguel. (Give the bill to Miguel.)

Entrégala a Miguel. (Give it to Miguel.)

Entrégale la cuenta. (Give him the bill.)

Entrégasela. (Give it to him.) [Correct. However, many natives would say here, "Entrégaselo," which is incorrect, apparently mistakenly thinking that the gendered pronoun (lo/la) has to refer to the gender of the person (Miguel) and not to that of the object (la cuenta). If the IO had been “me,” they would say, “Entrégamela,” so there is no reason to change the DOP from feminine to masculine, or change the order, just because the IO has changed from “me” to “him.”]

.

Pasamos el plato a Silvia. (We passed Silvia the plate.)

Le pasamos el plato. (We passed her the plate.)

Lo pasamos a Silvia. (We passed it to Silvia.)

Se lo pasamos. (We passed it to her.) [Correct. It is the IOP that changes to se; the DOP matches the gender/number of the DO.]

.

Enviamos los libros a las alumnas. (We send the books to the students [female].)

Les enviamos los libros. (We send them the books.)

Los enviamos a las alumnas. (We send them to the students [female].)

Se los enviamos. (We send them to them.) [Correct.]

.

Dará las llaves a Pablo. (He/She will give Pablo the keys.)

Le dará las llaves. (He/She will give him the keys.)

Las dará a Pablo. (He/She will give them to Pablo.)

Se las dará. (He/She will give them to him.) [Correct.]

updated AGO 7, 2009
edited by hhmdirocco
posted by hhmdirocco
1
vote

Well, I am afraid Paralee is wrong. You do not change the "l" to an "s" ... You simply change the IOP to "se". "Ses" does not exist in Spanish. Look:

Le lo --> se lo Le la --> se la Les lo --> se lo Les la --> se la

I am over 100% certain that that is right. As I said, "ses" does not exist.

updated AGO 7, 2009
posted by Nick-Cortina
1
vote

Thank you qfreed, I have changed my original post to 2.3.

And thank you Rocco for the great explanation.

updated AGO 7, 2009
posted by Goyo
0
votes

Yes, I am very sorry I made such a confusing statement as "change the L to an S." The rule is if there are 2 object pronouns that begin with L, change the first one to SE. "Ses" does not exist. Thank you very much for bringing this to my attention. I will find a way to correct the video.

Thank you, Paralee. You're the best!

I might also note that the "Write"section of lesson 2.3 also makes an error, as pointed out above, in the way it handles question 2. Do I need to point that out to someone else as well?

updated AGO 11, 2009
posted by Goyo
Oh, thank you Greg! I have fixed this error in the write section. If you ever see any errors in any of the learn sections, please let me know directly so I can fix them immediately! - Paralee, AGO 11, 2009
0
votes

Yes, I am very sorry I made such a confusing statement as "change the L to an S." The rule is if there are 2 object pronouns that begin with L, change the first one to SE. "Ses" does not exist. Thank you very much for bringing this to my attention. I will find a way to correct the video.

Evidently you didn't read my post.

Click here for RAE's official definition of "ses."

updated AGO 7, 2009
posted by hhmdirocco
0
votes

I suppose that this is the card that you refer to. Yes, it is incorrect when talking about plural i.o. pronouns. This is lesson 2.3, not 2.4.

![alt text][1]

[1]: Photobucketse

updated AGO 7, 2009
posted by 0074b507
0
votes

Whenever an indirect object pronoun beginning with "l" (le, les) and a direct object pronoun beginning with "l" (lo, la) appear together, the IOP changes to "se", because of the difficulty/awkwardness of saying "le lo, le la, les lo, or les la". You do not simply change the "l" to an "s"... It is always "se".

That may be, but it's not what Paralee says. In the video of lesson 2.3 at about 14 minutes in, she says

"If you have both an indirect and a direct object pronoun next to each other, and they both start with the letter L, then you change that first L to an S."

There is a graphic on the screen that says the same thing. So...which is it?

If you are right, and the site lesson is right, then Paralee is wrong. Yikes! I'd rather you be wrong!

Thanks for yur answer!

updated AGO 6, 2009
posted by Goyo
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