Verbs that change meaning in preterit and imperfect
I'm just opening this thread so I can attach a Word file of some of these verbs. (I couldn't figure out how to attach to a reply to the other thread in which this is being discussed.)
For anyone interested...
25 Answers
(This started out as a reply in the older thread but while I was composing it y'all started a new topic. So ...).
James Santiago said:
The only thing I'm telling you is that it works well for us. That there may be exceptions to the rule does not diminish its usefulness.
And yet we've also (all) seen cases where rules can (in the long run) cause more problems than they solve (in the short run). The frequently recurring case being ser/estar. The permanent/temporary distinction also causes light bulbs to appear over learners' heads but Lazarus thinks (as do I) that it starts them down the broad, easy path to damnation. They embrace what seems to them to be a readily understandable distinction in preference to learning a "foreign way of thinking" when it is, precisely, the way of viewing the world that needs to change.
By the way, we can (and occasionally do) convey the sense of saber in the preterite in English without something like "found out". Consider: "I knew in a moment it must be St. Nick." and if you wish to quibble about "in a moment" bearing the responsibility of the preterite; how about "When the door opened, I knew I was in trouble"'
lazarus1907 said:
Ah, and this is unrelated: "Tuve un libro de la biblioteca" (an example from that document) sounds horrible if you really mean "I got". I thought you might want to know it, to avoid using such weird construction, clearly conceived by an English speaker. This sentence is only acceptable if it means "I had a book from the library" (so much for the reliability of the source).
OK, thanks. I actually thought the same thing myself. But I provided the file not as an incontestable source, but just as an example of what I was talking about.
{sigh}
It's just that I don't view your counter-examples as truly violating the basic rule. Sure, there are cases where supe might be translated as knew, and conoció as knew (although in the particular example you gave, I would have used "learned" or "discovered"), but the rule is solid enough to provide useful guidance to learners. Many language rules have exceptions, but that doesn't invalidate the rule. This is much more true in English (which is a very irregular language, grammatically) than in Spanish (which is much more regular), so maybe we English speakers are just more comfortable with having a rule that isn't always true.
A ver si puedes controlarte y no contestar. (Te estoy tomando el pelo. Si quieres contestar, ¡ándale!)
Ah, and this is unrelated: "Tuve un libro de la biblioteca" (an example from that document) sounds horrible if you really mean "I got". I thought you might want to know it, to avoid using such weird construction, clearly conceived by an English speaker. This sentence is only acceptable if it means "I had a book from the library" (so much for the reliability of the source).
James Santiago said:
I'll never change your mind on this one, and vice versa.
Could you at least give me an answer, please? I promise not to reply, no matter what you say.
lazarus1907 said:
James Santiago said:
No, but please do read my last post to the other thread. If you still disagree (as I'm sure you will), let's just call a truce.
I'll stop if you want me to, but I'd like you to answer first how come it is so easy to find a sentence that doesn't follow those "rules".
Nah, let's just stop. It's like trying to convert someone's religion or politics: a very low-probability endeavor.
I'll never change your mind on this one, and vice versa.
James Santiago said:
No, but please do read my last post to the other thread. If you still disagree (as I'm sure you will), let's just call a truce.
I'll stop if you want me to, but I'd like you to answer first how come it is so easy to find a sentence that doesn't follow those "rules". I didn't even have to think to find those examples.
And, please, read my reply to your previous answer on the other thread.
Shall I continue'
No, but please do read my last post to the other thread. If you still disagree (as I'm sure you will), let's just call a truce.
James, the examples are funny, because all the distinctions are explained in terms of the meaning of the tenses, but here we go:
conocer
preterite - met
imperfect - knew
Counter-example to the "rule":
Arcadio nunca conoció el secreto de su filiación = Arcadio never knew the secret of his affiliation
"Met" is perfective, and imperfect does not allow perfective meanings, so they are incompatible.
querer
preterite - tried
imperfect - wanted
Counter-example to the "rule":
No quiso venir - He didn't want to come
"Tried (and completed)" is perfective, and imperfect does not allow perfective meanings, so they are incompatible.
Shall I continue'
Very interesting James! Thanks!!
