subjuntivo and using it in other places
i understand subjuntivo but sometimes i hear some of the words in diferent places for example:
tenga miedo .... why we used tenga instead of tengo or tiene'
36 Answers
Pergolesi said:
I was seriously messed up as a boy in school when I tried to apply rules to English spelling. The teachers never told us that spelling in English makes no sense and any rule works sometimes and not others.
English spelling doesn't make sense, but if you read about the history of English, you'll understand why. Subjunctive, on the other hand, makes much more sense than most people believe.
Pergolesi said:
It is illogical to argue that commands which aren't negative can be understood as commands while at the same time arguing that putting a "no" before the verb wouldn't ordinarily be understood as a command without changing the command to the subjunctive. Any command could imagined be the second part of a sentence that says "Espero que..." or "Quiero que.,.." is no different than saying the same thing as a negative: "Espero que no (verb)..."
It makes no sense if you don't understand the language, and you are mistaking one thing for another. I've already given a reasonable explanation: imperative forms are identical to those in the present tense, so adding a "no" in front of them make them look like you're describing things instead of giving orders. It would be impossible to figure out what someone is saying if you use the imperative forms with a "no". English has the auxiliary "do"; Spanish doesn't, so our language relies on a completely different mechanism to avoid ambiguities, and that mechanism is using the subjunctive.
A "command" can be expressed in many ways, and using those "Te ordeno que...+ subj." is one of them. The imperative forms in Spanish only exist in the 2nd person, are generally identical to the 3rd person of the present indicative, and only exist in singular. Any attempt of negating them makes ambiguous sentences because of these similarities. You are not "changing" the verb from imperative to subjunctive, but using a completely different construction which is "seen" as completely different from the point of view of a native. Understanding why the subjunctive is used is essential in understanding this, but if you don't... I can understand that you find all this confusing.
Well, this has gotten so convoluted that I'm not sure who is on what side! Lazarus, I read all of that and it made sense, but suffice it to say you're going to have to give a loooooong explanation every time you say this to someone who's learned the "negative imperative uses subjunctive" rule from another teacher.
It is illogical to argue that commands which aren't negative can be understood as commands while at the same time arguing that putting a "no" before the verb wouldn't ordinarily be understood as a command without changing the command to the subjunctive.
You may think it illogical, but that is the rule in Spanish.
Any command could imagined be the second part of a sentence that says "Espero que..." or "Quiero que.,.." is no different than saying the same thing as a negative: "Espero que no (verb)..."
But that's the point Lazarus was making, that you CAN'T use something like "Espero que..." or "Quiero que..." in front of a command in Spanish.
¡Come! = "Eat" (correct; command)
Espero que (tú) come = (incorrect)
Espero que (tú) comas = "I hope you eat" (correct)
As you see above, the command form cannot be preceded by a clause such as you mentioned.
:
Negatvie orders in Spanish always take the subjunctive....just remeber and dont' ask why. lol
I think this must be the best advice. Just like English spelling where you just have to accept that rules don't work and don't make sense, you just have to get a feel for it. I was seriously messed up as a boy in school when I tried to apply rules to English spelling. The teachers never told us that spelling in English makes no sense and any rule works sometimes and not others.
It is illogical to argue that commands which aren't negative can be understood as commands while at the same time arguing that putting a "no" before the verb wouldn't ordinarily be understood as a command without changing the command to the subjunctive. Any command could imagined be the second part of a sentence that says "Espero que..." or "Quiero que.,.." is no different than saying the same thing as a negative: "Espero que no (verb)..."
This discussion reminds me of the famous line from the "Fly" remake: "Be afraid; be very afraid!" How is that translated on the big screen for Spanish speaking viewers? I'm afraid, very afraid, of all those arcane rules of Spanish grammar. 
Natasha said:
For English learners, it's better to say something like "The negative imperative is the same as the subjunctive", or, "To make a negative imperative, we use the subjunctive."
Maybe, but on the other hand I can think of many reasons why your statements would be counter-productive. If you tell them that negative imperative and subjunctive are the same, they will come back asking why are you using the subjunctive if a sentence where there is no negative imperative, and then you'll have to re-explain everything (yes, the logical implication only works in one direction... for mathematicians, but not for most people). The second statement is fine in a way, but you are giving the students this message: this is another rule, among other thousand rules, that you have to memorize about how to use the subjunctive, which we don't seem to need in English, and all for no good reason other than making things unnecessarily complicated for students. I prefer to give reasons and give a logical picture of the subjunctive, personally.
punisher said:
yes but my question is why we used subjuntivo form after (NO), and if we always use this form after (NO) then why it is correct to say tengas miedo and (no) tengas miedo i mean with (tengas) it doesnt have to come after (NO) to put it as a subjuntivo form.
I tried to give you the answer before, but it seems that I am making you confused. Let me try again:
Indicative tenses can always work alone, and they are used when you want to purposely say things that you know or think. Therefore, you can say something like:
Juan tiene un coche.
You just stated that Juan has a car; you know it, you suspect it, or you think so, but in any case, you wanted to say it. Subjunctive tenses, on the other hand, always depends on another verb, because they are not used to purposely say things that you know or think. Thus, if you hear:
... Juan tenga un coche.
you have heard, not a full sentence, but the end of a longer sentence. In any case, no one has the intention to say what they think or know. The full sentence could have been, for example:
No creo que Juan tenga un coche.
Here we can see why you used subjunctive: because you don't think that Juan has a car, so using the indicative would have been a contradiction, because indicative is used to say thinks that you know or think, and you just said that you don't think so.
Most imperative forms are similar to those of the present tense, and we don't have "don't" in Spanish, so if you tried to say "No come", you wouldn't be saying "Don't eat", but "He eats", so trying to use the imperative forms for negative commands would only cause confusion.
What we say, instead of "Don't eat" is "I don't want you to eat" or "I forbid you to eat". And here is why we use subjunctive: this construction goes like this:
Te ordeno que no comas.
If we had used the indicative, we'd be saying what we think or know, so we'd be stating that the other person doesn't eat. The problem is that is not what we want to say; we want to tell the other person not to eat, not to state that this person is eating. The subjunctive avoids this statement regarding the other person being eating. This kind of constructions often omit the main verb (e.g. "No quiero que"), leaving the subjunctive alone:
No comas.
Natasha said:
punisher said:
mmmmmmm i think what my teacher means is tengas que cerrar la ventana (as a wish) i understood the example in a wrong way, but still that ddnt solve my problem, when u want to give an order for the verb HABLAR you say (habla ingles) but if u want to say dont speek english do u say (no hable or no hables ingles)? if the answer is yes, then my question will be why we changed the form of the verb ? -habla no hable o no hables .
also, tengas miedo (be afraid), no tengas miedo (dont be afraid) but when we say tengas que cerrar... its wrong.
i really dont know if im making sence,
shy smile
Good try with hablar.
Tú form:
¡Habla inglés!
¡No hables inglés!
Usted form:
¡Hable inglés!
¡No hable inglés!
Ustedes form:
¡Hablen inglés!
¡No hablen inglés!
We'll leave someone else to do the vosotros form.
I always thought a negative command in the "usted" form took the tense of the second person singular, ie
Don't speak English - No hableS inglés
yes but my question is why we used subjuntivo form after (NO),
and if we always use this form after (NO) then why it is correct to say tengas miedo and (no) tengas miedo
i mean with (tengas) it doesnt have to come after (NO) to put it as a subjuntivo form,
? ? ? ?
thanx Natasha i apreciate your help
lazarus1907 said:
punisher said:
mmmmmmm i think what my teacher means is tengas que cerrar la ventana (as a wish) i understood the example in a wrong way, but still that ddnt solve my problem, when u want to give an order for the verb HABLAR you say (habla ingles) but if u want to say dont speek english do u say (no hable or no hables ingles)? if the answer is yes, then my question will be why we changed the form of the verb ? -habla no hable o no hables .
Imperative in Spanish is only used to give orders, not to order not to do something. For this, we use the subjunctive instead:
¡(Te ordeno que) no hables!
¡(Prefiero que) no hables!
Lazarus, while I know what you mean and you certainly are correct, I'm pretty sure you're going to confuse beginners by talking like that. That's because the categories don't cross the language barrier.
For English learners, it's better to say something like "The negative imperative is the same as the subjunctive", or, "To make a negative imperative, we use the subjunctive."
punisher said:
mmmmmmm i think what my teacher means is tengas que cerrar la ventana (as a wish) i understood the example in a wrong way, but still that ddnt solve my problem, when u want to give an order for the verb HABLAR you say (habla ingles) but if u want to say dont speek english do u say (no hable or no hables ingles)? if the answer is yes, then my question will be why we changed the form of the verb ? -habla
no hable o no hables .
Imperative in Spanish is only used to give orders, not to order not to do something. For this, we use the subjunctive instead:
¡(Te ordeno que) no hables!
¡(Prefiero que) no hables!
punisher said:
also, tengas miedo (be afraid), no tengas miedo (dont be afraid) but when we say tengas que cerrar... its wrong. i really dont know if im making sence,
The example is not corrrect:
Ten miedo (be afraid)
Te digo que tengas miedo (I am telling you to be afraid)
No tengas miedo (don't be afraid)
Negatvie orders in Spanish always take the subjunctive....just remeber and dont' ask why. lol
punisher said:
mmmmmmm i think what my teacher means is tengas que cerrar la ventana (as a wish) i understood the example in a wrong way, but still that ddnt solve my problem, when u want to give an order for the verb HABLAR you say (habla ingles) but if u want to say dont speek english do u say (no hable or no hables ingles)? if the answer is yes, then my question will be why we changed the form of the verb ? -habla no hable o no hables .
also, tengas miedo (be afraid), no tengas miedo (dont be afraid) but when we say tengas que cerrar... its wrong.
i really dont know if im making sence,
shy smile
Good try with hablar.
Tú form:
¡Habla inglés!
¡No hables inglés!
Usted form:
¡Hable inglés!
¡No hable inglés!
Ustedes form:
¡Hablen inglés!
¡No hablen inglés!
We'll leave someone else to do the vosotros form.
mmmmmmm i think what my teacher means is tengas que cerrar la ventana (as a wish) i understood the example in a wrong way, but still that ddnt solve my problem, when u want to give an order for the verb HABLAR you say (habla ingles) but if u want to say dont speek english do u say (no hable or no hables ingles)? if the answer is yes, then my question will be why we changed the form of the verb ?
-habla
no hable o no hables .
also, tengas miedo (be afraid), no tengas miedo (dont be afraid) but when we say tengas que cerrar... its wrong.
i really dont know if im making sence,
shy smile
punisher said:
thanx, its clear now, the other example that i gave when my teacher gave me an example (tengas cerrar or que cerrar la ventana) i got a response from james saying that it doesnt sound correct, well i doesnt sound right to me aswel, but why my teacher gave me that example? (i cant get clear explaination from her becuase she doesnt speek good english), what i understood from her is that example is given when you want to tell someone that he or she has to do it, i really dont know if i got it right or if she gave me the right example?
im sorry if im mixing things up, im just a beginner and i apreciate your help
It is possible that there was a typo in your teacher's example. Why don't you ask him (or her)?
"Tienes que cerrar la ventana" is correct. "Tengas que . . . " is not.
thanx, its clear now, the other example that i gave when my teacher gave me an example
(tengas cerrar or que cerrar la ventana) i got a response from james saying that it doesnt sound correct, well i doesnt sound right to me aswel, but why my teacher gave me that example? (i cant get clear explaination from her becuase she doesnt speek good english), what i understood from her is that example is given when you want to tell someone that he or she has to do it, i really dont know if i got it right or if she gave me the right example?
im sorry if im mixing things up, im just a beginner and i apreciate your help
"Tenga miedo" is never used alone, or at least, never understood alone: it requires a main verb, explicit or implicit.
If you say "tienes miedo", you want the other person to know that, from your point of view, this person is afraid. You are basically telling him: "you are afraid!". You can add that you suspect it, you know it, or whatever, but you tell him. You are stating something regardless of the rest of the sentence. This is why you use indicative.
If you say "tengas miedo", you are NOT telling the other person "you are afraid!", but using these words to express something else. For example, "don't be afraid" ("No tengas miedo"), or "I don't think you are afraid" ("No creo que tengas miedo"). These words are only part of a larger sentence, and not an independent statement that you do regardless of the rest of your words. You are not directly and intentionally saying with any of the previous examples "You are afrad!". This is why you use subjunctive.
The first example ("No tengas miedo") can be rephrased as "Espero que no tengas miedo" (I hope you ar enot afraid"), "Quiera Dios que no tengas miedo", or something similar.
P. S. James, I avoided the term "declaration," and I rephrased everything, to see if it makes more sense like this.
