pronomial verb / verb reflexive
This may qualify as the proverbial "dumb question," but here goes anyway . . .
In the dictionary on the site, the first listing that comes up has a category of "pronomial verb." The second listing has the category of "verb reflexive." Are these just different words for the same thing? And is that just dictionary-speak, to say "verb reflexive" rather than "reflexive verb"? Finally, what is a "verb neuter"?
(You can see what I'm talking about if you look up the verb "encontrar", which is the subject of a current thread.)
24 Answers
Well, OK, but how does that relate to the verb encontrar'
Se encuentran muchas diferencias en las culturas extranjeras.
One finds many differences in foreign cultures.
Many differences are found in foreign cultures.
This is almost like a passive voice.
The above is assuming that samdie's theory is correct, and that verb neuter isn't just a castrated verb.
samdie said:
Quentin said:
So what was the "verb neuter"?
While waiting for Lazarus to revisit this tread, I'll venture (that's for Heidita) a guess. I'ts what (probably "antiquated" textbooks) referred to as the "impersonal". e.g. ¨¨ÿn españa se dice que...¨/¨No se sabe si..."
Well, OK, but how does that relate to the verb encontrar'
Quentin said:
So what was the "verb neuter"?
While waiting for Lazarus to revisit this tread, I'll venture (that's for Heidita) a guess. I'ts what (probably "antiquated" textbooks) referred to as the "impersonal". e.g. ¨¨ÿn españa se dice que...¨/¨No se sabe si..."
So what was the "verb neuter"'
Lazarus said:
:
"Lavarse" is reflexive, and its meaning is crystal clear, and require no explanation whatsoever, but pronominal verbs are a headache for most people who have never been told about them, and insist on sticking a "oneself" to their translation in English.
Well, I fear being caught in the crossfire, but I have to say I agree with Lazarus on this one. The Spanish grammar I learned just mentioned reflexive verbs. I learned by default that some verbs have a "reflexive" construction without really a reflexive meaning, and am glad to know there's a word for that.
James said:
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"Pronomial verb" is used a lot in the study of French and Spanish grammar, but frankly, it doesn't mean a lot to me.
James, I don't know why . . . it is obvious from previous discussions (some in Spanish, which I struggled to follow) that your grammatical level, in a linguistic sense at least, far exceeds my own.
. I just want to know what the dictionary is talking about. Lazarus must not have seen this thread yet 
Natasha...I think you just missed him!
Let me try to approach this from a different angle.
"To come" means to move towards the speaker, but "to come about" doesn't mean to come to the speaker about anything, but "to happen". The preposition has literally altered the meaning of the verb, and it doesn't make sense to insist in the meaning to "to come" in isolation, and then say that there is a preposition after the verb. To make things easier for everyone, these combinations are called "phrasal verbs", and whenever someone sees this term, one knows that they just go together, and they can behave like a completely different verb.
"To fall" normally means go down due to your own weight, but, suddenly, "to take in" means "to deceive". Something so radical surely deserves a name, if only to warn people who want to learn how to speak a language when they are no longer children.
Pronominal verbs also change their meaning, and most of the time, even the way you use them: e.g. they no longer accept direct or indirect objects, they suddenly need a preposition, and their meaning without the pronoun can be completely different. So, what is wrong with having a name for these verbs that are so different from their non-pronominal counterparts? "Lavarse" is reflexive, and its meaning is crystal clear, and require no explanation whatsoever, but pronominal verbs are a headache for most people who have never been told about them, and insist on sticking a "oneself" to their translation in English.
They do exist, they are different, and they can become a nightmare if you don't learn to deal with them the way Spanish people try to deal with phrasal verbs in English, i.e. the best we can.
Any good dictionary should include a mark to inform the user that the verb is different from a normal one, since most normal pronominal verbs can be used reflexively anyway. The only term, as far as I know, is "pronominal".
P. D. James: if you are really interested, just let me know, and I'll do my best to clarify any point that requires clarification.
you appear to have declared war to this word.
Haha! No, I have nothing personal against the word, and if using it helps others, then of course it should be used. I'm just saying that it has never helped me. In fact, I don't fully understand the distinctions you are drawing above. This is surely a failure on my part, rather than your explanation being deficient. I am one of those people you mention, who "want to know the grammatical rules to improve their skills in foreign languages," and in general I love to know all the various terms. It's just that I have never really understood this "pronomial verb," and in my case I seem to absorb such verbs better than if I try to analyze them.
Natasha, if you understand everything Lazarus says above, my hat is off to you. (Well, I do understand it on a certain level, but not on another.)
James Santiago said:
"Pronomial verb" is used a lot in the study of French and Spanish grammar, but frankly, it doesn't mean a lot to me. (I'm waiting for the rain of flame from Lazarus for that comment.) I wouldn't get too wrapped up in all these grammatical terms if I were you. When native speakers learn Spanish, they don't worry about these tags; they just absorb the language. At your level, I think you are ready for absorption, too. We'll never absorb as much as a native, but the more we read and hear Spanish, the more natural these various uses of "se," etc., become to us. Is "encontrarse" pronomial? Is it reflexive? Who cares? I say, let's just try and mimic how the natives use it.
As far as absorption . . . I just don't hear enough Spanish. (I heard it a lot more often when I lived in Texas!) As far as the labels . . . I just want to know what the dictionary is talking about. Lazarus must not have seen this thread yet
