Grammar problem

Question

I'm working on some exercises for double pronouns and here is my question: I can say this...

Los profesores no pueden darles exámenes a los estudiantes.
or...
Ellos no pueden darselos.

Now, if say this...

Nosotros te contamos la historia de nuestras vidas.
I have to replace it for...
Nosotros te la contamos.

Why is it wrong to attach the double pronoun to the verb in the second case, as in...Nosotros contamotela?

I thought that when pronouns are used with a present participle or progressive tense, the pronoun(s) can either precede the helping verb or be attached to the participle. As in...
Lo estoy mirando / Estoy mirándolo

Las estábamos mirando / Estábamos mirándolas

And you think I was ready for a second year course...you're too generous.

Thank you,

Gui

Answer 1

Valerie said:

Did it help'I don't know if it helped Natasha, but it sure helped me! I'd wondered where that extra "me" came from! Thanks!

Yes, it helped me too. I've heard this usage but never heard it explained before.

Answer 2

Did it help'

I don't know if it helped Natasha, but it sure helped me! I'd wondered where that extra "me" came from! Thanks!

Answer 3

Natasha said:

I'm getting confused about the following: --periphrases --dative --enclitics and how "lo" or "la" can be used as articles

Maybe an example of each would help most right now.

A periphrasis is a combination of a verb, which is used as auxiliary, it is fully conjugated and indicates the tense and mood, some optional prepositions or conjunctions, and a verb in infinitive, present participle or past participle, which is the important one, since carries most of the meaning of the periphrasis. These two (or more) verbs, along with the linking particles, work as an indivisible group, pretty much like a single verb would. Two examples:

*Tener que + infinitivo = To have to do something
Estar + gerundio = To be going something
*
These periphrases accept, in general, the clitics before of after the verb:

Lo estoy haciendo = Estoy haciéndolo
Tengo que verlo = Lo tengo que ver.

The pronouns that jump before and after the periphrases and imperatives are called clitics.

The word "te" can be the name of the letter T, but it can also be a clitic (e.g. te quiero)
The word "la" can be an article (e.g. la casa), but it can also be a clitic (e.g. la quiero)

A dative is something that appears to be an indirect object, but it always stays as a pronoun, whereas an indirect object can appear both as a normal phrase, as a pronoun, or both at the same time (e.g. le pegué a ella). Datives normally indicate an emotional interest in the verbal action, whether the person who uses it participates of this action or not. Example:

Mi hija se casa el mes que viene.

It is a normal sentence, and has nothing strange (except for the "se", of course). However, if the mother wants to express her emotional attachment or interest, she can say:

Mi hija se me casa el mes que viene.

This "me" is a dative. Another example:

¡Qué bien me come mi niño!

Most of the time they can be removed without any effect in the sentence, but other times they are necessary to convey the right meaning.

Did it help'

Answer 4

lazarus1907 said:

And then, of course, you have the Spanish periphrases, which despite their importance, they are hardly mentioned in any book published in English. The only one they mention is the one with "estar + gerundio", and they call it "present progressive", even though there are other (unmentioned) periphrases capable of expressing that as well, and they all can be constructed for any tense. These periphrases behave differently from normal verbs, and they extensively used.As I said, let me know if you want any definition.

I'm getting confused about the following:

--periphrases
--dative
--enclitics and how "lo" or "la" can be used as articles

Maybe an example of each would help most right now.

Answer 5

lazarus1907 said:

Natasha said:

You said: "If you had learnt the Spanish grammatical terms from the start, you wouldn't have ended up so confused." I have the book 301 Spanish Verbs, which gives the words for verb tenses in Spanish. Are there other Spanish grammatical words I should know? I know "substantivo" and "verbo." However, if you started talking about "enclitic pronouns" in Spanish I would be lost. Some of the other discussions on this site come to mind . . .

I personally find that book pretty bad for many reasons (I have at home the 501 Spanish verbs instead), but I guess it is better than nothing.What grammatical terms do you need? Well, it depends on what kind of books you read, and how deep do you want to go when it comes to grammar. In Spanish there are certain types of pronouns that can operate as direct objects, indirect objects or datives, and have be placed right before the verb or attached after the verb: me, te, se, nos, os, lo, los, la, las, le, and and les. Some of these words can be other things, e.g. "lo" or "la" can also be articles. Only when these pronouns have these functions and the potential ability to be placed after or before, they are called "clitics" (clíticos in Spanish). If they appear attached to the verbs, they are called "enclitic". As you can see it is a lot easier to say "clitic" than "those kind of confusing pronouns that sometimes are le, sometimes lo, or even reflexive, that... bla bla", and much easier to say "enclitic" than "those pronouns that attach themselves after the verb" when this is an infinitive, a past participle or an imperative form".

I actually like grammar (which is probably as weird as loving math), but it seems that learning Spanish grammar as taught by English speakers has left me rather confused. For right now my goal is not very ambitious, just to be able to use verbs and pronouns correctly in conversation.

Answer 6

And then, of course, you have the Spanish periphrases, which despite their importance, they are hardly mentioned in any book published in English. The only one they mention is the one with "estar + gerundio", and they call it "present progressive", even though there are other (unmentioned) periphrases capable of expressing that as well, and they all can be constructed for any tense. These periphrases behave differently from normal verbs, and they extensively used.

As I said, let me know if you want any definition.

Answer 7

Natasha said:

You said: "If you had learnt the Spanish grammatical terms from the start, you wouldn't have ended up so confused." I have the book 301 Spanish Verbs, which gives the words for verb tenses in Spanish. Are there other Spanish grammatical words I should know? I know "substantivo" and "verbo." However, if you started talking about "enclitic pronouns" in Spanish I would be lost. Some of the other discussions on this site come to mind . . .

I personally find that book pretty bad for many reasons (I have at home the 501 Spanish verbs instead), but I guess it is better than nothing.

What grammatical terms do you need? Well, it depends on what kind of books you read, and how deep do you want to go when it comes to grammar. In Spanish there are certain types of pronouns that can operate as direct objects, indirect objects or datives, and have be placed right before the verb or attached after the verb: me, te, se, nos, os, lo, los, la, las, le, and les. Some of these words can be other things, e.g. "lo" or "la" can also be articles. Only when these pronouns have these functions and the potential ability to be placed after or before, they are called "clitics" (clíticos in Spanish). If they appear attached to the verbs, they are called "enclitic". As you can see it is a lot easier to say "clitic" than "those kind of confusing pronouns that sometimes are le, sometimes lo, or even reflexive, that... bla bla", and much easier to say "enclitic" than "those pronouns that attach themselves after the verb" when this is an infinitive, a past participle or an imperative form".

Answer 8

lazarus1907 said:

Natasha said:

Lazarus, can you refer us to a page for the Spanish grammatical terms? I don't recall ever seeing such a listing.

Such a listing of English terms, or Spanish terms'I don't know any page where the Spanish ones are explained or translated for foreigners, but I can write them for you, if that's what you want.

You said: "If you had learnt the Spanish grammatical terms from the start, you wouldn't have ended up so confused."

I have the book 301 Spanish Verbs, which gives the words for verb tenses in Spanish. Are there other Spanish grammatical words I should know? I know "substantivo" and "verbo." However, if you started talking about "enclitic pronouns" in Spanish I would be lost. Some of the other discussions on this site come to mind . . .

Answer 9

You are making plenty of sense. Many thanks.

Gui

Answer 10

Natasha said:

Lazarus, can you refer us to a page for the Spanish grammatical terms? I don't recall ever seeing such a listing.

Such a listing of English terms, or Spanish terms?
I don't know any page where the Spanish ones are explained or translated for foreigners, but I can write them for you, if that's what you want.

Answer 11

lazarus1907 said:

The enclitic pronouns (the ones attached at the end of the verb) are only used with infinitives, present participles and imperatives.Ellos no pueden dárselos. (poder + infinitive)Las estábamos mirando / Estábamos mirándolas (estar + present participle)But in "Nosotros te la contamos" you are using the present tense, so no enclitic pronouns can be used.Bear in mind that what you call "present progressive" in English, it is not a proper tense in Spanish grammar as such. In our grammars we call it a "perífrasis durativa", and it can be used in all tenses and moods: preterite, imperfect, present,... So the name "present progressive", copying the English nomenclature, is misleading. This periphrasis uses the verb "estar" as an auxiliary verb and the present participle of the verb (which again, it is not a present in Spanish grammars, and therefore it accepts enclitic pronouns). The present tense in your question is called "presente" in Spanish; the present participle is called "gerundio", and the present progressive is called "perífrasis durativa" where the auxiliary verb (estar) is in present tense, but not the verb in question, like "mirar" in your example. Everything is a "present" in English! If you had learnt the Spanish grammatical terms from the start, you wouldn't have ended up so confused.Am I making any sense here?

Lazarus, can you refer us to a page for the Spanish grammatical terms? I don't recall ever seeing such a listing.

Answer 12

The enclitic pronouns (the ones attached at the end of the verb) are only used with infinitives, present participles and imperatives.

Ellos no pueden dárselos. (poder + infinitive)
Las estábamos mirando / Estábamos mirándolas (estar + present participle)

But in "Nosotros te la contamos" you are using the present tense, so no enclitic pronouns can be used.

Bear in mind that what you call "present progressive" in English, it is not a proper tense in Spanish grammar as such. In our grammars we call it a "perífrasis durativa", and it can be used in all tenses and moods: preterite, imperfect, present,... So the name "present progressive", copying the English nomenclature, is misleading. This periphrasis uses the verb "estar" as an auxiliary verb and the present participle of the verb (which again, it is not a present in Spanish grammars, and therefore it accepts enclitic pronouns). The present tense in your question is called "presente" in Spanish; the present participle is called "gerundio", and the present progressive is called "perífrasis durativa" where the auxiliary verb (estar) is in present tense, but not the verb in question, like "mirar" in your example. Everything is a "present" in English! If you had learnt the Spanish grammatical terms from the start, you wouldn't have ended up so confused.

Am I making any sense here'