Can a monogamous culture be called "uptight"?
A woman was asking on this thread what was her boyfriend supposed to be called in Spanish being herself married.
Caza said this:
I´m just curious to know where in the world is it acceptable to have a Husband and openly admit to having a boyfriend?
Gekko said this:
I think there are still a few cultures that are less uptight about it than the American cultures
I am surprised at the expression "uptight" in the sentence. So do you consider the thought of monogamy to be uptight? I consider the expression rather insulting. Not flattering anyway.
Gekko was fast to add an article on polygamy, of course, as this is the one to take into consideration. As polyandry (woman with several husbands) can almost nowhere be found
I wonder though about the word uptight, as one of the societies that actually accepts polygamy are Arab countries, interesting thought to consider precisely those countries as "liberal" and not uptight, as American countries.
Islam Main article: Polygamy in Islam In Islam, polygamy is allowed for men (making it polygamy), with the specific limitation that they can only have up to four wives at any one time.
Well, only up to four at any one time...not so bad then
So is the thought: only one couple...uptight? Should we all have several husbands , boyfriends, wives....
27 Answers
Heidita I think you made a valid point in drawing our attention to the hypocrisy/double standards that some men try to support around the world. I agree with you that these double standards are deplorable.
However, I do not believe that these practices are good - whoever practises them: men or women ! Many men have made exceptions for their actions to justify what would otherwise be indefensible behaviour and then add insult to injury by saying that they, men, can do these things and maintain their integrity and status in society but that a woman should be seen in a worse light if she does the same things.
I once dated a married woman. She left her husband for me. We had fun for awhile and I loved her. And she slept with everyone and thier uncle when she was with me, and she was so gorgeous that even you were my really good friend your good sense would go right out the door at her advances..... One of my friends asked me how I could ever trust her, and the answer was that I couldn't. How can you? Once a lier, once a cheater, once a deciever, always. (certain exemptions apply, your mileage may vary, offer not valid in Australia.).
I have been following this thread with great interest all day long on my phone.
Originally my intention was to open a parallel thread on the subject of moral judgment, but I see that it has been dealt with nicely here, so I'll just stay with this one.
Ian said:
We not only have a right to judge, but a duty to do so, if we believe other people's actions harm the society we live in. And that society now is the whole world. I live in it - God is somewhere in heaven. If that upsets someone I am not too sorry about it. We are responsible for our actions - I don't ask for absolution.
Heidita said:
I don't know about the duty, but I do think we have the right to judge.
I was surprised at the posts on the other thread which said, hey, we are not here to judge you....well, in my opinion, we are talking about judging in the sense of giving our opinion, so as long as we are not insulting or being offensive...I think any kind of opinion is a kind of judgement.
Gekko judged the American society, he said they were "uptight". That is one kind of judgement. He has the right to do that, I have the right to disagree.
I can identify three different concepts playing in this argument. One is what Heidita states: Do we have the right to have and express an opinion? Another is expressed by Ian (and to a certain extent, shared by Heidita too): Are we entitled to pass judgment on others?
And finally, is the action that I perceived in the original post: Do we have the right to publicly condemn someone with different ethical standard from mine?
There are not simple, black and white issues, and it would take a whole book to explore them in detail. But for what it's worth, these are my personal views:
Yes, Heidita, I think we are entitled to have and express and opinion.You don't like cheating, and I don't either. Neither of us likes double-standards.
Yes, Ian, I think it is unavoidable for most of us at least, to judge actions according to our moral code. Else defining "good" and "evil" would be futile and senseless exercise. I think that abusing a child is a terrible, sinful deed, and that it should be punished severely, for example.
Now, the last bit is much trickier. I have own moral scale, and I am sure most of all do as well. There are some things that I definitely agree must be publicly denounced and condemned: the pedophile of my example, a corrupt politician, a murderer... anyone who causes grievous harm, her or she should be denounced. And fairly judged. And properly punished, if guilty.
But the thing is, I don't always have all the information or evidence to be able to decide that someone is "guilty" and deserving of condemnation. That's why things like the police, and the Earthly courts, and even the Heavenly courts exist.
I do not have such a deep and intimate knowledge of the Bible, but I have listened to my fair share of sermons, have had plenty of religion class at school, have had wonderful discussions with priests and ministers from several different denominations, and have done my bit of Bible reading too. I know that God gave us His Commandments. I know that God ordered Man to obey His law, and even that God, and Jesus Christ as well, asked Men to spread the word and convert the Heathen. So I can understand where the spirit of Mission comes from. But I am having a very hard time recalling ever having heard about or read any passage of the Bible where it says: You Must Judge your neighbor according to Your understanding of My Law, and Publicly Condemn and Stigmatize Him (or Her) when He (or Her) Misbehaves.
As Ian said: " We are responsible for our actions ". God made us so. It is up to each one of us to obey God's law as we understand it, or not. We may feel the moral obligation to try and enlighten someone else, show them the right path. But I think that the final decision of whether that person did indeed do wrong or not, and whether he or she is saved or will burn in hell forever, is strictly between that person and God.
So I believe that as intelligent and rational beings, we all have opinions, and can't help but have moral and ethical views, and judge other's actions according to those views. I consider it my duty to live according to my own moral and ethical principles - I believe in being truthful and faithful to myself.
But I do not believe that I have a right to rub my beliefs in other people's faces, not stigmatize them from believing differently from me.
Can a monogamy culture be called "uptight"?
I really want to comment but I can't.
I could never be unbiased on this subject, instead I will just practice my formatting.
@ ian-hill: How is giving God the right to judge taking the easy way out? Its not my place to stand there and get upset or angry because someone doesn't believe the way that I do. They have the right to do what they wish, thats called free will, and I cannot do anything about it. Like I said, I don't have to agree with it, nor do I have to like it; I choose not to live my own life that way.
I personally took my vows seriously. I choose to spend my life with my husband and my husband alone. I have no desire to be with anyone else while I am with my husband, nor would I be willing to share him with someone else. I am married to a man from Mexico, and I know how he was raised and that "affairs" were "allowed" between his parents (and when I say allowed, I mean his mother knew it was happening, but she ignored it because it was never directly thrown in her face). I have made it clear that I will not put up with that. If he wants to dip his "fishing pole" in the neighbors pond, then so be it. I'll pack my bags and go because I refuse to sit idle and watch the man I love and adore touch and be touched by another woman. If he wants to be with me, then be with me. I did not sign on to be with someone who not only wants to be with me, but also with little Ms Susie up the street. I have made that very clear to my husband, just as he has made that clear to me. I have chosen to give myself to him and only him. I don't believe in cheating and never will agree with it.
But as I said, I am not going to judge someone else because they believe diffrent than I do. If it works for them then that is awsome. I know it wouldn't work for me because someone would end up getting hurt (and I don't mean emotionally) because I would not sit back and play nice.
I don't think we Americans are uptight about it, but if we were unfaithful to our wife then we would most likely be slapped and chased out of the house followed by a string of profanity.
What a complicated web we would weave if we all did as suggested.
We tie ourselves in knotts as it is.
Supporting the idea of one man one woman (one woman one man) can never be considered as "uptight" - in my very humble opinion.
Yesterday I was listening to a Nigerian woman who has written a book about polygamy in Nigeria. Her mother was the #1 wife of an African King. She was definitely not in favour of polygamy.
Well - Gekho and I really opened a can of worms between us (and by the way I am English)
I have read through the posts with much interest and notice that the majority of opinions are based on a husband and wife situation.
I understand that there are many cultures and church groups that practice polygamy - which is mainly accepted by others because this is their recognised way of life. Generally more than one wife - I can´t think of anywhere where there is more than one husband! However, my original post referred to a situation between a married woman and her boyfriend.
Along came all the posts about judging people - funny how the train of thought can wander!
We not only have a right to judge, but a duty to do so
I don't know about the duty, but I do think we have the right to judge.
I was surprised at the posts on the other thread which said, hey, we are not here to judge you....well, in my opinion, we are talking about judging in the sense of giving our opinion, so as long as we are not insulting or being offensive...I think any kind of opinion is a kind of judgement.
Gekko judged the Amerian society, he said they were "uptight". That is one kind of judgement. He has the right to do that, I have the right to disagree.
I think all this, hey, I am liberal and I live in a liberal relationship. This is normally ok as long as the man is the one who has a lover, not the woman of course.
I have only just seen the movie: "The duchess". The Duke takes a lover and he actually makes his wife live with him and the lover in one house, one table...The wife takes a lover too, consequently. She is oblidged to leave him under the threat of being banned from social life, her lover from his job and she won't see her children again.
This liberal thinking is wonderful as long as the wife is not doing the same as the husband.
I do not know you Gekko, and I can really not tell, but I doubt very much that this would have been ok with you. I can see this in Spain all the time, everything is ok as long it is the man to have an affair.
Let's please not forget...a man who has a lover is a stud...a married woman who has a lover is a $%&*?&.
Others here have questioned my / our right to judge. We do it in all manner of things - who is breaking the law etc so why not when someone is breaking a heart or destroying a child's upbringing?
We not only have a right to judge, but a duty to do so, if we believe other people's actions harm the society we live in. And that society now is the whole world.
I live in it - God is somewhere in heaven. If that upsets someone I am not too sorry about it. We are responsible for our actions - I don't ask for absolution.
PS - I have come back here to add something.
I am not an atheist - but I get fed up with some people standing on God's shoulders and claiming the high ground.
We are not talking about "Biblical Judgement" here.
Human behaviour can be very complex at times and in my experience and obersvation even more so when it comes to the matter of the human heart and relationships. On a practical level I do not know how people can offer any degree of fidelity to more than one person when it is hard enough for most human beings to be faithful to one person ! So where does that leave polygamy or its advocates?
Secondly,for intimacy to be effectively established and maintained requires that trust and committment should be reciprocal. I would argue that it is in the God created nature of people to desire that their partner be faithful to them..even though, as it so often appears, humans are so often incapable/unwilling to keep their promises.
Intimacy is one of the deepest needs of all human beings and after a relationship with God the desired love for a relationship with another human being of the opposite sex comes a close second. For any relationship to have the chance of succeeding there needs to be a willingness for both the guy and the girl (or I suppose in some people's lives two guys/girls) to Give and Take since a relationship would soon fall apart if neither gave and both just wanted to take and conversely would not succeed if both wanted to give and neither were willing to recieve ( I agree that this last example is hardly likely to exist in today's society.
I believe that more people are finally realizing that the establisment of a loving relationship between the husband and wife is a greater determing factor in creating a sense of security for children than the parent-child relationship. The parents who are involved in a stable long term relationship will provide greater security for children than in families where one partner is involved in a series of short-lived interactions between boyfriends or girlfriends. I know from having worked with children that they need continuity and permenance in their relationships with their primary carers; their parents, in order to develop into emotionally healthy adults and they would not be able to receive this in families where either their father or mother was involved in a series of polygamous relationships with other partners. Infact,last year I spoke with an adult female who expressed that she was unhappy with her fathers affairs with other women, while her mother was still alive; when she was a child ! Since the way we live our lives frequently touches others lives, especially those of children, and always has some kind of impact - however imperctible - we are not really free to do just as we choose in life becuase soonr or later it damages the lives of other people
Asesinaria un sancho mi novia tendro
