Let's talk about the pronoun se.

Question

It seems to me (and I may be completely wrong) that there are at least four ways to use "se" as a pronoun.

1) Personal reflexive pronoun for the 3rd person, both singluar and plural. Also used for recipical actions in the 3rd person.

Se baño. He bathed (himself). Se casan. They married (each other).

2) Indirect object pronoun as a replacement for "le or les" when the direct object begins with the letter "l".

Se lo llevo a mí. He carried (D.O. = the book) (Ref = to me). Se me trae a él. She brough (D.O. = me) (I.D.O. = to him.)

3) Reflexive impersonal when the object of the reflexive action is unknow or indistinct or general,

Hay que dormirse cada dia. One has to sleep every day.

4) Impersonal when talking about something in general.

En nuestra sociedad ya no se respeta los ancianos. In our society old people are no longer respected. (who doesn't respect them is not mentioned).

Okay! So here are my questions related to recognizing which form "se" is taking in spanish.

1) In the sentences above under 1) it is impossible to have an IDO as the action is self directed and the IDO describes where the action is directed so it would be redundant?

2) In the sentence above under 2) it will only be before "lo/la/los/las" as a substitute IDO?

3) Same argument as 1) above.

4) Same argument as 1) above.

So would you ever see "se me verb" or "se te verb"?

If everything above is correct then can I simplify my thinking to be that if I see "se" with another pronoun that it is ALWAYS acting as a substitute IDO?

Also, can I think of reflexive pronouns as a subset of DOs, since the DO identifies where the action of the verb is going and the Reflexives do the same although it is limited as being only back to the subject of the verb?

• There are something like 10 different uses of "se". Look up "se Lazarus" in our search field to see his expert opinion. - jeezzle Jan 1, 2012
• Here's on thread: http://www.spanishdict.com/answers/9105/tutorial-by-lazarus-transitive-and-intransitive-constructions-use-of-se - jeezzle Jan 1, 2012

Answer 1

1) Personal reflexive pronoun for the 3rd person, both singluar and plural. Also used for recipical actions in the 3rd person.

Se baño. He bathed (himself). Se casan. They married (each other).

1) In the sentences above under 1) it is impossible to have an IDO as the action is self directed and the IDO describes where the action is directed so it would be redundant?

Se bañó - He bathed (himself). Se bañó el brazo. El brazo - indirect object pronoun. His own arm. Le bañó el brazo (de otra persona). He washed his (other guy's) arm.

2) In the sentence above under 2) it will only be before "lo/la/los/las" as a substitute IDO?

Yes, those use SE in order to avoid the "la la" sound etc...

3) Reflexive impersonal when the object of the reflexive action is unknow or indistinct or general,

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Dormirse means "to fall asleep" and dormir means "to sleep"

Hay que dormirse = one should fall asleep. Hay que dormirse temprano = One should go to bed early = one should fall asleep early.

Hay que limpiarse - one should was themselves. Hay que limpiar (la mesa etc...)

En nuestra sociedad ya no se respeta los ancianos. In our society old people are no longer respected. (who doesn't respect them is not mentioned).

In our society old folks are not longer respected. This can be interpreted like this too: In our society "one doesn't / we don't" respect old people anymore.

No se puede - one can't / (we / people) can't

No se fuma - don't smoke / one doesn't smoke / no smoking.

Looking up the Lazarus threads is the best idea to get a full grasp, Let me know if there is something more you need.

Oh - you had one more thing

So would you ever see "se me verb" or "se te verb"?

Yes all the time.

Se me cayó el libro - the book fell (takes away personal responsibility)

Se me rompió la silla - the chair went and broke on me (takes away personal responsibility)

No se te olvide - Don't forget , ¿seguro que no se te olvida? Are you sure you won't forget?

I hope you appreciate this long post, it is contrary to my nature.

PS there are many other ways to use se, these are just a handful.

Answer 2

From Jeezzle: Se bañó - He bathed (himself). Se bañó el brazo. El brazo - indirect object pronoun.

So if it is understood that you are talking about the arm you could say. Se lo bañó (el brazo). Is this correct? Because in this example the reflexive pronoun has moved to the IDO position and the defenition of a reflexive pronoun is the action of the verb is self directed (very similar to the definition of the DO but not IDO)

Wouldn't you say El bañó su brazo> (Su brazo used for clarity instead of el brazo). Or su mismo brazo. Because in your example the verb "bañó" "he bathed" is not referring to himself but rather to his arm, and thus is not reflexive. Am I being too literal?

• It is HIS arm. It is referring to himself. - jeezzle Jan 1, 2012

Answer 3

Thanks, Jeezzle. I do appreciate the post. Especially the final examples. This to me is one of the most confusing things in spanish.

Thanks again. Great examples. Even though it still leaves me with no easy way to interpret "se". Oh well!

• Se is one of the hardest things to learn fully, and even fluent people still have issues with it. - jeezzle Jan 1, 2012

Answer 4

Se lo bañó (el brazo). Is this correct? Because in this example the reflexive pronoun has moved to the IDO position and the defenition of a reflexive pronoun is the action of the verb is self directed (very similar to the definition of the DO but not IDO)

Wouldn't you say El bañó su brazo> (Su brazo used for clarity instead of el brazo). Or su mismo brazo. Because in your example the verb "bañó" "he bathed" is not referring to himself but rather to his arm, and thus is not reflexive. Am I being too literal?

You are trying to hard to see "it", (the word it). El bañó su brazo is odd, the reason we don't use "tu" / "su" etc... with body parts is because it gives them a detached feeling, like maybe it's a fake arm, or a wooden arm. That arm does not "belong" to him, it IS him. Se bañó la cabeza con champú. Hay que bañarse con jabón antibacterial.

• Thanks again. This is very confusing. Your explanation helps A LOT, but still leaves me fearful of "se". - gringojrf Jan 1, 2012

Answer 5

There are several other uses of "se". One of them is simply idiomic -- "irse" (to go from or leave) is different in meaning from "ir" (to go [to]). Or, as mentioned above, "dormirse" (to go to sleep) is different from "dormir" (to sleep). In those cases, the reflexive form effectively gives us a different verb.

Another use is when the subject of the verb is clear but the suggestion is of the event happening to him or her (even though he or she actually did it). For example, "Se me olvidó la gorra" (I lost my cap, but not intentionally). In those cases, we always see "Se me/te/le [verb]" constructions.

• Interesting avatar. - qfreed Jan 2, 2012