Why is "espero que tuvieras un fin muy agradable" incorrect?

Question

I don't understand why I can't say:

Espero que tuvieras un fin muy agradable. I hope you had an enjoyable weekend.

But rather it must be:

Espero que hayas tenido un fin muy agradable. I hope you have had an enjoyable weekend.

Thank you!

Answer 1

I don't understand why I can't say:

Espero que tuvieras un fin muy agradable. I hope you had an enjoyable weekend.

Of course you can say that! The sentence is perfect... except for that "fin" that sounds as if you are wishing someone had an enjoyable death. At least say "finde" (fin de semana).

• Jejejeje! I couldn't help thinking of someone telling another: "I hope your death is beautifully coreographed, and dazzingly realized, my friend". - 002067fe May 23, 2011
• Tom, the English word has two "h"'s. Choreographed. - Eddy May 23, 2011
• I'm confused because my friend who speaks fluent Spanish, as she's from Mexico, corrected it. ?? Sidenote, she says they use 'fin' in this way all the time. - Erin May 23, 2011
• Thanks a lot for catching that, Eddy. - 002067fe May 23, 2011
• Your friend could be using a regional expression that does not apply to all countries. - lazarus1907 May 23, 2011

Answer 2

Lazarus, I have always seen the preterite to be used to express an action in the past that is completed or seen as completed, and which has a concrete and clear beginning and end. But seen the imperfect to be used when referring to actions that haven't got a clear or precise end.

So how would "tuvieras" be ok to use since the weekend has a precise end??

Careful! Your assumptions about aspect in indicative past tenses are fairly accurate, but subjunctive has no aspect differentiation, since there are only 4 tenses (as opposed to 9 in indicative). In subjunctive, present and present perfect refer to non-declared real events (the perfect being finished), while the imperfect and pluperfect are mental events. There is no distinction like the one between indefinite and imperfect in subjunctive.

Answer 3

So I guess the mystery continues...

Let's make a couple of things clear: the sentence above is unquestionably perfect, and it is the one I would probably use myself, but it is not the only way to say it. The problem with the allegedly bad grammar of the other one is a debate that has been going on for over 20 centuries. According to Latin grammars, the tense of the main clause determined that of the subordinate one, so only certain combinations were possible. Certainly, educated writers used to follow those rules to the letter, but not all of them, and people in the street did not care about them; they just tried to talk in a way that made sense to them. Latin changed, and Romance languages tried to come up with a their own set of rules for tense matching, imitating what the all-mighty Latin grammar used to do. Of course, people in the street kept ignoring those rules.

The set of rules is described with the mouthful "Consecutio temporum", and establishes, for example, that if the main verb is in present tense (e.g. Espero que...), the verb in the subordinate clause cannot be imperfect subjunctive (e.g. tuvieras un día muy agradable). A few decades ago, a few grammars finally dared to speak, and serious studies challenging this dogma were began to be published. Many of these articles have been written by some of the grammarians that the RAE has used in its last two mega-grammars, for example, and they often conclude that this rigid tense correspondence, although it always produces correct sentences, it is not the only way to produce a valid sentence -one has to take into account many other factors into consideration, including the meaning and relationship between the words. Again, I am not talking about charlatans, but people that the RAE has entrusted to write their grammar. The latest grammar of the RAE dedicates three sections of a chapter to clarify these apparent exceptions. In their own words, "...y los textos ponen de manifiesto en un porcentaje elevado esa interpretación. Sin embargo, la gramática no rechaza oraciones..."

I have checked with one of the authors of the best didactic grammar that there is available in Spanish at the moment, and he didn't even understand my question. Why would it be wrong? -he said.

Unfortunately, some people follow these rules far too rigidly, and as soon as they detect what they think it is a violation of a sacred rule, they'll tell you it is wrong.

Answer 4

Well the imperfect tense is used when an action in the past went on over a period of time whereas the perfect tense (as well as the preterite) refers to actions over a short period of time or just once so the same applies when using subjunctive. So you'd use the perfect tense "hayas tenido"

I could be wrong, so correct me if I am, but that's how I look at it :]

• Spanish tenses do not codify the length of a time period. The length is indicated by adverbs. - lazarus1907 May 23, 2011

Answer 5

Lazarus, I have always seen the preterite to be used to express an action in the past that is completed or seen as completed, and which has a concrete and clear beginning and end. But seen the imperfect to be used when referring to actions that haven't got a clear or precise end.

So how would "tuvieras" be ok to use since the weekend has a precise end??

Answer 6

sequence of tenses

Please note the fine print.

• Thanks for the link Lorenzo. It's a great reference. - CalvoViejo May 23, 2011
• My oh my. Jehle is normally on track, but this is an exception. With a "governing" verb in the present indicative, any subjunctive tense can follow, depending on context. - Vikingo May 23, 2011

Answer 7

Spanish tenses do not codify the length of a time period. The length is indicated by adverbs. - lazarus1907

You would all do well in not comparing Spanish tenses with English tenses here, as the strict use of tenses in English simply does not apply to Spanish, period.

Answer 8

Your friend could be using a regional expression that does not apply to all countries.

For what it's worth, I just asked another friend who lives in Mexico, but a different region (far south) and my other friend is from the northern part. He also said it should be:

"Espero que hayas tenido...."

So I guess the mystery continues...