Gerund/gerundio

Question

I would like to take this opportunity to formally protest the equation of the English "gerund" and the Spanish "gerundio". Both the conjugation pages and the dictionary entries incorrectly suggest that these term are synonymous. The Spanish "gerundio" is best translated as "present participle" in English. The English "gerund" is, basically, untranslatable in Spanish (the closest possibility being to refer to the infinitive [when used as a noun]). However, in this case (infinitive used as a noun) English grammarians (for whatever reasons) don't use the term "gerund", either. One can, of course, give an explanation of the term "gerund" in English but any such explanation would have to be couched in terms of English grammar (since there is no corresponding construction in Spanish).

I suspect that many SD users are entirely unfamiliar with the term "gerund" (British and American education systems being what they are) until they encounter the term on this site and that Spanish-speaking users may be familiar with the term "gerundio" but do not know the English equivalent.

Perhaps, SD users are incapable of understanding/learning such distinctions. Perhaps, they will be hopelessly seduced by the similarly sounding "gerund" and "gerundio" and always confuse the terms. Is it, however, the place of SD to compound this confusion by suggesting that the terms are synonymous, when they are, in fact, not?

• I just saw this, Sam, nice post...good information. - --Mariana-- Oct 13, 2011
• As are all your posts:-) Right Mariana. - Janice Oct 13, 2011

Answer 1

Perhaps, SD users are incapable of understanding/learning such distinctions.

Yes, we are a dumb lot. Your 'knowledge' would be a lot more impressive if you didn't have to resort to impugning the ability of others. I'm much more impressed with your arrogance than I am with your knowledge. Since this is a "formal protest" I don't see the need of insulting SD users as less able than yourself.

• you have my vote, way to go Jack ! - albert-fabri Feb 3, 2011
• What an answwer - Dakie Feb 4, 2011
• Well, sorry Jack, but I didn't feel insulted, at all. And in fact , I find samdie's post quite interesting. I better don't say what I'm thinking of your answer. - cogumela Feb 4, 2011
• Perhaps you misunderstood Samdie, Jack. I thought to have understood him to be saying that it's this tool treating us like we might not be able to understand something Samdie thinks we all can understand. He wants it fixed. Don't you agree? - Janice Feb 5, 2011

Answer 2

Yes, we are a dumb lot. Your 'knowledge' would be a lot more impressive if you didn't have to resort to impugning the ability of others

It is precisely because I believe SD members are capable of understanding the distinction that I have taken the trouble to spell out the difference (on a number of occasions). If I thought them incapable, I would simply shrug and stop trying to clear up the confusion.

What I was trying to suggest is that the failure of the reference section articles to address the difference and to settle for calling them equivalent could be interpreted as implying that they (not I) think that the explanation is "too difficult" for most users to understand.

• I don't know that it means much, but I understood your intentions from the outset. That is I understood them to be a (somewhat scathing) critique of the way that the conjugation tool handles this terminology rather than a criticism of the people using... - Izanoni1 Feb 4, 2011
• ...the tool. I also agree that it would probably be best to rectify such discrepencies in terminology. Moreover, I don't think that some of the reaction that you have recieved to this post were fair considering your intended message; however, I am sure.. - Izanoni1 Feb 4, 2011
• ...you are probably experienced enough to realize that (especially in the printed form) the use of sarcasm/irony to make a point can often be misinterpreted. Thankfully, I grew up in a household which required me to become fluent in sarcasm, so I am... - Izanoni1 Feb 4, 2011
• ...somewhat immune to such pitfalls. - Izanoni1 Feb 4, 2011
• In any case, I think that you have a valid point, but perhaps a better tact would have been to simply write your own (set of) reference article(s) on the subject. Based on what I have seen of your posts, I assume that such an endeavor is likely not..... - Izanoni1 Feb 4, 2011
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Answer 3

Samdie, this may be related to the earlier thread "escuchar vs escuchando". I did make a very qualified post to that thread and provided a link on this site describing the use of gerunds and participles. My post did contain an error which I would like to correct. Infinitives can not be used as adjectives. You were correct in your comment.

I am having difficulty understanding gerunds, participles, and infinitives as they relate to speaking and writing Spanish. I offered the post intending to help the user by identifying what I thought to be a helpful link.

You are also correct when you say that, in English terms, many teachers consider "gerund" and "gerundio" to be synonymous. I asked a local high school Spanish teacher that question last week. She said they were the same.

I appreciate your input and your zeal for the language. I appreciate all positive input. But I do not appreciate being considered incapable of understanding or learning a meaning or principle.

I am here because I want to learn Spanish. I'm not a high school student. I am a medical professional working in a free clinic that offers primary health care to (among others) Spanish speaking patients unable to communicate in English. I study here and other places because patients do not correct my grammar when they have pain or need care. I want to communicate with them better and hope to (someday) be able to work without a translator. I also participate in mission efforts in Spanish speaking countries. I want to improve my skills, though I am only a novice to the language.

Please remember, though your zeal is admirable, I are here to learn the language. I apologize if I am not up to your level of understanding.

• You will know by now from many comments that there was no such intention of impugning anyone's abilities -- just the opposite. - Janice Feb 5, 2011

Answer 4

I am so glad you posted that. I have been answering some questions on that subject and I agree with you about the confusion.

Maybe someone should write some article on those differences and post it in the Reference section, so SDers woud have the opportunity to understand the uses and see examples.

Answer 5

I think Samdie's suggestion that the confusion be cleard up once and for all is a good one.

The problem English "present partciple" does not end with gerunds however, especially for those learning English.

They are also "adjectives" sometimes.

I am boring. - adjective

I am boring you. - present continuous (also called progressive)

The boring of the hole was time consuming. Gerund (noun)

• Smart - Amor_y_paz Oct 13, 2011
• Nice - --Mariana-- Oct 13, 2011

Answer 6

the use of sarcasm/irony to make a point can often be misinterpreted

Although I am fond of irony as a rhetorical device (and to a lesser extent sarcasm), What I intended to express (in this case) was a sense of disappointment. In May of last year I posted an article (started a thread) entitled "'gerund' vs. 'gerundio' (Misuse of terms on SD) ". My hope at the time was that this would, at least, lead to a correction in the "conjugation" section. There, it's only part of the "boiler plate" and it should be easy to correct. In the dictionary section, the the same mis-equation (mis-translation) exists but I assume that SD has some sort of "licensed" rights to use (but not the ability to change) the content.

As for the reference article, I think I may have made a comment on the misuse of the term "gerund" (where one should have said "present participle) but I don't remember and I can't find the link. As far as authoring an article on "'gerund' versus 'gerundio'", it goes against my nature. For every thread that I have started, I have made a hundred replies to some other person's thread and for every other person's reply, I have made scores of comments. It simply is not in my nature to initiate discussions, except under duress.

P.S. Even if I were inclined to author a a new thread, that is not what I would like to achieve. My goal is not to offer a dissenting opinion but, rather, that the original article be changed because it is misleading. It's not simply a matter of a difference of opinion, the use of "gerund" in the reference article is flat out wrong.

Answer 7

In the grammar that I'm writing (and maybe I'll never finish), I've decided to call this non-finite form "gerundio", writing it like that, in italics, and I explain that calling it gerund only leads to confusion, because this form can only be matched sometimes with a present participle. Among all the bad decisions in the history of grammar, using this name for the Spanish "gerundio" is definitely one of the worst ones.

Those who already know what "gerund" means in English, will be extremely confused when they realize that Spanish "gerundios" are not the same, and this is only going to slow them down... a lot. Those who didn't know these grammatical terms will probably be OK, since the term meant nothing to start with, but if they try to go deeper into grammatical comparisons and find out about the term in English, they'll join the group of those poor confused ones who knew about the term and were told that they mean the same.

Bad idea... bad idea...

• Also the fact that English writers explaining the gerundio use the term "gerund" with no explanation that it does not have the same meaning as "gerund" in English contexts. - qfreed Feb 5, 2011
• I agree. iendo and ando is not the same thing as ing. Thinking that has caused myself to make mistakes. I hope you do finish your grammatical writing, I'll certaintly pick up a copy of it. :) - Amor_y_paz Oct 13, 2011

Answer 8

...And just to add to the confusion, in French the present participle is also called:

"le gérondif" ...

Answer 9

Very interesting. I was a bit confused and in my search I found this thread. Is the reference article still wrong? If so why don't we correct it? We have sufficient reputation points and authors of reference materials are open to corrections (if not, they are supposed to be).

My question is, do I only use el gerundio after estar? May I use it after a past participle?

Thanks for any answer or link to a correct reference article.

• answer posted below :) - Kiwi_Girl Oct 13, 2011
• It's above now. :) lol - Amor_y_paz Oct 13, 2011

Answer 10

@ Amor y Paz

Hi A&P these are just my thoughts but hopefully they won't put you too wrong je je

My question is, do I only use el gerundio after estar?

As you mention probably the first and most common way to use the present participles in Spanish is after estar and if you use the present tense of estar with the present participle that forms the present continuous (or progressive) tense - eg. estoy comiendo.

But you can use them with other verbs - anda buscando, sigue estudiando etc

May I use it after a past participle?

You're quite right you can use it after a past participle, the most common ones being sido and estado - for example with your past perfect progressive tense - he estado durmiendo, I've been sleeping

The main difference between English and Spanish present participles is that you can't use the the Spanish ones (gerundios) as nouns 'Nadando es bueno para la salud.' instead you use the infinitive Nadar es bueno para la salud.

Ver es creer. Seeing is believing. etc

• Ah, muchas gracias M.C. to see is to believe ;) And to say I was eating I use one of the past tenses of estar + el gerundio. ¿Verdad? - Amor_y_paz Oct 13, 2011
• you've got it :) - Kiwi_Girl Oct 13, 2011
• you use the imperfect tense of estar + the present participle to form the post progressive :) - Kiwi_Girl Oct 13, 2011
• 'estaba comiendo' = I was eating :) - Kiwi_Girl Oct 13, 2011
• Kewl bananas ;) I will practice it to keep it ;) Thanks again M.C. :) - Amor_y_paz Oct 13, 2011
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