verb conjugation for Impersonal Se

Question

Hello, can someone please tell me which of these sentences is correct? I think there's a misprint in my lesson book. They say the construction of Impersonal Se is se + 3rd person singular verb + singular subject.

They sell newspapers here.

Se vende periodicos aquí. Se venden periodicos aquí.

Thanks

Answer 1

There is not a terrible lot of difference between the impersonal se and the passive se in this context.

Se vende periódicos aquí.

Newspapers are sold here. (No agent whatsoever is implied)

Se venden periódicos aquí [por ellos]. (the agent isn't usually mentioned, but it can be and still be correct.)

Los periódicos son vendidos por ellos. (classical passive voice used. The agent isn't required, but the form makes it easy to include it.)

Ellos venden periódicos aquí. (impersonal you or they)

All of them basically saying the same thing. The only difference is the amount of involvement or how much you want to hide the doer or agent in the sentence.

• Good explanation. Involvement is the key point. - KevinB Sep 28, 2010
• Thanks to both of you! - Erin Sep 28, 2010

Answer 2

The second one is the correct.

• ...With a tilde over the o, periódicos - cogumela Sep 28, 2010

Answer 3

Se vende periódicos aquí. Impersonal Se

Se venden periódicos aquí. Passive Se

(Ellos) venden periódicos aquí. What does it imply when 'se' is not used?

The first one is not recommended academically (grammars say it is wrong), because the impersonal is used only with intransitive verbs or transitive verbs with people, plus in many regions people just would never say a sentence like that.

The second one is a passive with "se", where someone performs the action, but is not mentioned for some reason.

The third one is another alternative to omit the subject of the sentence, and "Aquí venden periódicos" would be more common. Also, you can NEVER use "ellos" here, because there is no "ellos" anywhere, even if the conjugation of the verb suggests such agreement. If you say "ellos", people will ask "¿Quiénes son ellos?", puzzled and confused. This plural is used when you don't know who is the subject.

Answer 4

If it is impersonal se then the 3rd person singular is used even if the object is plural.

One sells newspapers here.

Se vende periodicos aquí.

You pay the fines on Mondays. Se paga las multas (plural object) los lunes.

Impersonal se´The Spanish impersonal 'se' is the English equivalent of 'one' / 'people.' Like the English 'one,' the impersonal se refers to an unidentified human agent. It only uses intransitive verbs and 'objectless' transitive verbs as in en los Estados Unidos se come mucho 'people eat a lot in the United States (no mention of what they eat.) The verb is always singular

You can also state the sentence impersonally using they referring to an unspecified they:

In this case, the verb must be plural to match the plural subject "they".

Notice that the Plural Impersonal (unknown "they") does not use the se :

[Ellos] venden periódicos aquí.

see this article for examples

• Can you write specific Spanish examples? Thanks. - pesta Sep 28, 2010
• So then it's either: Se vende periódicos aquí. "Newspapers are sold here" or Venden periódicos aquí. "They sell newspapers here." Correct? - Erin Sep 28, 2010
• Se vende or se venden could be used - They sell, are sold. The first is impersonal se, the second is passive se. - KevinB Sep 28, 2010
• I agree. I just didn't want to confuse the issue with passive se. - qfreed Sep 28, 2010

Answer 5

Lesson 3.12 here covers this topic pretty well. Your book is correct for the impersonal se.

Se habla inglés = They speak English here (someone here speaks English)
Se vende periódicos aquí = They sell newspapers here (someone here sells newspapers).

But the second one sounds weird to me. Most people I know would use passive se instead of impersonal se. In impersonal se, the subject is singular, human, but not specified. The verb matches the (singular) subject. In passive, the subject and object are the same, it's inanimate, and can be singular or plural. In your example, the subject and object are the newspapers. The verb has to match the newspapers.

Se venden periódicos aquí = The newspapers sell themselves here = Newspapers are sold here.

Which one is right? I think you could argue for either. They sell newspapers here, or newspapers are sold here. If your teacher really wants impersonal se, I'd go with se vende.

• exactly why I said "if it is impersonal se" the other is passive-reflexive - qfreed Sep 28, 2010

Answer 6

Qfreed or KevinB: could either of you please translate these sentences so I can get the exact difference between them? This is confusing.

Se vende periódicos aquí. Impersonal Se

Se venden periódicos aquí. Passive Se

(Ellos) venden periódicos aquí. What does it imply when 'se' is not used?

• Don't be confused. They all mean pretty much the same thing. Try not to make the mistake of translating things word-for-word. It doesn't work. Your current lesson is on impersonal se, so use se vende. I bet you learn passive se next. - KevinB Sep 28, 2010
• Native speakers don't chop logic so finely. That's why cogumela said se venden. That's just the way she says it. But for your class, stick to what your teacher wants to hear. - KevinB Sep 28, 2010
• Now to your question: Se vende and (ellos) venden are impersonal - some person or persons (unnamed) sells newspapers. Se venden is passive (sometimes called passive-reflexive) - the newspapers sell themselves (get sold somehow). Same meaning, really. - KevinB Sep 28, 2010

Answer 7

Ok so let me get this straight. After all this dialog:

Se vende periódicos aquí and Se venden periódicos aquí.

The differences between them are so slight that it's more confusing to explain it than to just accept that they pretty much say and mean the same thing.

• Except for "se vende" is wrong according to grammars. - lazarus1907 Oct 3, 2010
• It's the difference between "Newspapers are sold here" and "They sell newpapers here". Same thing if you are looking for a newspaper to read, but not the same if you are trying to learn how a language expresses things. - qfreed Oct 3, 2010

Answer 8

Thank you everyone for this explanation.

I was just wondering about this.

I had a conversation with someone at a party Friday evening. I've been using the passive reflexive fairly consistently to express the passive voice, and in one instance he corrected me. I cannot remember exactly what we were discussing.

To me, without this explanation, it seemed like just a singular/plural issue with the verb.

Thank you for the explanation, which tells me of the subtler issues at work here.

Are there any verbs you can think of in which the forms of

se hablan se habla

are not interchangable?