Is the system failing or our members?

Question

You will need to read the thread on the Word of the Day pretender to follow my question. Also, I am posting links to our dictionary's definition of pretender as well at the R A E's dictionary definition. Next is an about.com article on the word. Sorry, for all of the research, but you will need the background information to answer my question.

If you read the thread you will see that several incorrect uses of the word pretender are provided in replies. Comments are often attached suggesting the use of other verbs for the context provided. However, several of these incorrect replies have been voted up and when I read the post none had been flagged for inaccuracy. The corrective comments seem to be ignored or misunderstood.

We have a system in place for handling such situations. We have a flag for marking incorrect or inaccurate replies. This situation is exactly what that flag was made for, but everyone seems hesitant to employ it.

An no one had created a reply drawing everyone's attention that an error was prevalent in the answers.

Now I see no problem with the incorrect replies. If you weren't aware that pretender and pretend are false friends in some contexts that's understandable and completely forgivable.

What isn't acceptable is the weak responses by those that did know. Why no flags when you noticed that the comments weren't preventing additional incorrect replies with the same error. Why no reply highlighting the problem for those that don't read the comments to other people's replies. Was a moderator contacted to say that a problem may exist in a thread?

If I hadn't known the correct usage of the word before reading the thread I would have left the thread wondering if pretender and fingir were synonyms. I think the shortcomings of this point system and flag system were highlighted in this thread.

So now my question: is the system faulty or are our members at fault for being hesitant to use it?

Postscript: sanlee diligently uncovered a dictionary that lists "fingir" as a synonym for "pretender". So, even though, I think that it is incorrect and my question was really more on handling errors than the meaning of pretender I'm deleting my question after a short pause to allow anyone time to finish their comments. (by request) The irony is that it will not allow me to flag my own question as inaccurate.

• I didn't look at the times, but didn't benz make that point? I saw yours also.that does not explain the continued confusion though - nizhoni1 Jul 11, 2010
• Yes, several people made the point, but no one was getting the message and incorrect replies kept being made, possibly misleading other to make even more. - qfreed Jul 11, 2010
• I have to admit I don't always read Word for the day, at least, not on the I receive it on my mobile If I notice errors in either Spanish or English I will point them out to people in the comments box I will only offer corrections within the limits of - FELIZ77 Jul 11, 2010
• ....my ability and rarely flag unless I am totally sure of the grounds for my concern. - FELIZ77 Jul 11, 2010
• My only point was that we can't just stand by and see egregious mistakes multipy themselves. - qfreed Jul 11, 2010
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Answer 1

Quote from Quentin I couldn't care less about the word. I only care about how the problem was being handled. an error was being made and I don't feel that those that saw it were doing enough to stop it, correct it, or draw attention to it.

While I agree with Quentin that this is a problem overall, I found the corrections and conflicting information in this particular thread to be extremely confusing.

First of all, as Jeezle aptly pointed out, our own dictionary did fail in this case. I do care about that, it's a big deal, and it contributed to the problem in this case.

Second, the correctors of the "dictionary issue" helped out by posting dictionary entries that were completely in Spanish. Folks... some of us can handle that, and some of us can't. I imagine that many people read those all Spanish dictionary entries with eyes glazed over, then proceeded to vote for incorrect sentences because they didn't know any better - they didn't understand the corrections given, and kept going back to the good old SpanishDict.com dictionary, which said it was fine.

And the problem is that flagging someone takes away ten points from a person's reputation. Do we really want to penalize our learners for sincere attempts at participation? ¡Ojala qué no!

We have had a policy on the Palabra del Día that nobody's post may be accepted as the correct answer unless all the necessary correction have been made. That is an encouragement for people to come back and make corrections, and that's probably as far as we ought to take it.

• WE still have this policy, no answer can be accpeted that has not been corrected - Heidita Jul 12, 2010

Answer 2

Quentin said:

I can't promote the idea of editing other's replies.

I completely agree...I'd be very upset if another member edited my answer and made corrections. It's more appropriate to put a comment below my answer.

As for that particular post, it occurred to me that "pretender" was a false friend, but I admit that I didn't take the time to research it. I posted a very different use of the word, i.e., to make a claim.

As for using the "inaccurate" flag, I seem to recall a post where some Admin (not sure who) said "be careful to only use that for outrageously bad answers." So, I almost never use that flag. I would certainly be willing to use the flag a lot more often if it didn't subtract 10 points from the poster.

Bottom line: I think SD policy is failing our members. If you want us to be comfortable using the "inaccurate answer" flag then there should be no points deduction attached to it.

• That's my point Marianne... If I had flagged your wrong answer, would you have been mad at me? or Would you pay more attention next time before posting? :) - Benz Jul 11, 2010
• I agree, Benz. It's a sticky situation. People would be so angry if we flagged them for their mistakes. - --Mariana-- Jul 11, 2010
• Q, please don't delete this post/your question. A lot of members can benefit from the discussion. - --Mariana-- Jul 11, 2010
• I agree. No points deduction would be needed. Also I can imagine a huge influx flags that would be really annoying. - jeezzle Jul 11, 2010
• What can I say. Flag it for being inaccurate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - qfreed Jul 11, 2010
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Answer 3

I agree with you Quentin. Particularly in this case -the pretender thread- I was the one that corrected many posts where the verbs were misused. I also posted the meaning from the WR dictionary with several examples so that posters could understand the proper use of the word (because it's confusing sometimes). You're right when you say that very few people corrected their posts. I had a look at the thread this afternoon...

.

Do you think I should flag those responses when they are wrong or when the word is misused? This is what Luisa said:

Después de este fin de semana yo he decidido no meterme más en respuestas ajenas. Me encanta este sitio y no quiero crear animosidad. - LuisaGomezBa 9 mins ago flag

Cuando he hecho comentarios las respuestas que he recibido me hacen sentir como una "sabelotodo" y eso me incomoda. - LuisaGomezBa 9 mins ago flag

And I back her up here... In general people don't like to be corrected. Can you imagine if we flag them?? . Be honest please... They're gonna hate us!! I feel flagging is like foul language here... correct me if I'm wrong please... but that's how I feel.

.

I guess it's a 50-50... a faulty system and hesitant members afraid of the big egos wandering around

• Gracias Benz. - LuisaGomezBa Jul 11, 2010
• Well, sanlee pointed out a dictionary that uses fingir as a synonym for pretender, so I may have to withdraw my thread even though it was more about how to handle errors that the word pretender. Did you see my comment about I never agreed with the policy - qfreed Jul 11, 2010
• I really appreciate everyone's corrections. I would not know what to do without them. Please continue to correct me!! - sanlee Jul 11, 2010
• I would like to flag to call attention when I know enough to do so. I do feel bad for the point subtraction though - nizhoni1 Jul 11, 2010
• of attaching negative points to inaccurate answers. Several of us objected to that policy when it was implemented and continued to do so in a thread on modifying or adding flags. - qfreed Jul 11, 2010
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Answer 4

Good discussion of the point system Q.The fact that the dictionaries vary in their definitions lends greater weight to having a flag just for attention of a moderator without penalty.

• Good solution if it can be done. - fontanero Jul 12, 2010

Answer 5

I think most people would be scared to hit flag because usually flag is used just for inappropriate comments that should be removed, they aren't used to there being options for why they're flagging it. At least that's how I feel a little bit. I didn't know there were flagging options.

EDIT: UGHHHH I cannot believe I wrote "their" instead of "there". I never make that dumb mistake.

Answer 6

I believe there was some problem with the SD verb conjugation on pretender. Krama asked the question, if you want to check it out.

Many of my answers need correcting, mostly because I'm not that good. I don't always correct them immediately. I may not see it immediately. I may be unsure of the correction, and wait for another. I may ask a further question in order to understand.

My answer to pretender is a good example of this. I waited. I checked, I corrected and I learnt. You can't punish someone for not sitting in front of a screen 24/7 waiting for a correction.

If I was flagged for every remark which required correction, I would have a minus score. My only choice would be to refrain from participating in the forums.

I would not use the flagging system for corrections, only for inappropriate questions or comments. Perhaps that is a fault with me.

• My point exaclty. That flag is for corrections. Not for inappropriate responses or comments, but no one is using it. And what do you care if your score is negative if you are learning from your mistakes? Why would that prevent you from participating. - qfreed Jul 11, 2010
• By the way, I was one of the people that criticized putting penalty points on flags when it first came into existance, because I thought it would inhibit beginner participation. - qfreed Jul 11, 2010
• Should I flag every spelling, punctuation and grammatical error in every English statement? - fontanero Jul 11, 2010
• I'm discussing correcting an egregious error, if you want to be ridiculous let's not discuss it. - qfreed Jul 11, 2010
• Should I flag a comment that is insulting? - fontanero Jul 11, 2010
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Answer 7

This might be stupid but I personally thought that the flag was to flag inappropriate material...

• Tienes razón :) You're right - for that reason people don't like to use the flag to alert people to an incorrect answer - hence my suggestion for having 2 different coloured flag - one for inappropriate material the other for incorrect grammar etc - Kiwi_Girl Jul 12, 2010
• I thought so too, but the responses I've had seem to disagree. - fontanero Jul 13, 2010

Answer 8

I had a feeling pretender was gonna cause some problems, if that's what you mean, but you know that our dictionary lists "to pretend" as the definition so I can see why some of the members are having problems with it.

From the Spanishdict dictionary Pretender = to pretend. Of course you and I know that fingir means to pretend and pretender means to intend, or to aspire to be.

Here is my thread that I created long ago about pretender. I wanted to post at the very beginning of that thread a warning about pretender but I wasn't sure how to begin to do that.

link text

• I couldn't care less about the word. I only care about how the problem was being handled. an error was being made and I don't feel that those that saw it were doing enough to stop it, correct it, or draw attention to it. - qfreed Jul 11, 2010
• Después de este fin de semana yo he decidido no meterme más en respuestas ajenas. Me encanta este sitio y no quiero crear animosidad. - LuisaGomezBa Jul 11, 2010
• Cuando he hecho comentarios las respuestas que he recibido me hacen sentir como una "sabelotodo" y eso me incomoda. - LuisaGomezBa Jul 11, 2010
• I totally agree. I can't tell you how many times I've decided to leave this site, because of the reactions to discussions that were not meant to be acrimonious, but ended up that way. - qfreed Jul 11, 2010
• I agree with Luisa. I feel safer in the background with my mouth closed. - jeezzle Jul 11, 2010
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Answer 9

And the problem is that flagging someone takes away ten points from a person's reputation. Do we really want to penalize our learners for sincere attempts at participation? ¡Ojala qué no!

- Goyo

I think most people would be scared to hit flag because usually flag is used just for inappropriate comments

- soccoryo3

I almost never use that flag. I would certainly be willing to use the flag a lot more often if it didn't subtract 10 points from the poster.

- Marianne

Is it time to revisit flagging? Deducting points for spam, insults, obnoxiousness (and some forms of outright stupidity) makes sense, but those committing that kind of behavior probably don't care about points and Admin seems to do a good job of showing them the door.

I would like to see a box to check that imprints a message similar to:

validity of this answer challenged with maybe a place for challenger's name so that you know where to look for an explanation. Point reduction may or may not be necessary - I won't vote up a challenged answer without more input, would you?

Answer 10

A minor contributer to the aspect of the voting issue might be that some individuals vote people up for no reason. I've definitely seen irrelevant posts voted up before, so aside from the issue of flagging there is something more than well intended members who gloss over corrections to other posts.

I personally never use the flagging system for things other than bots selling things or intentional vulgarity. I wasn't aware that it could be used for things other than this.

Answer 11

I think that the problem is that when any member see something wrong and it has suggests but it was not corrected he or she don't want to bother that member with flagging . And I also think that there is a Solution for that problem and it is : when any member of us see anything wrong he can simply correct the mistake and comment on that answer saying that he corrected it with Mentioning the mistakes it really helps a lot and that happens with me a lot of times and I am really thankful for all the members that have corrected my threads or answers or maybe when anyone see that mistake he or she can PM that member Mentioning his or her mistake and I am sure he or she will correct it.

• Personally, I take very seriously the ability to edit someones reply. I always try to tell them why and what I did, but even then I am hesitant to do it. You could start some very nasty arguments by editing someones replies, especially if your correct - qfreed Jul 11, 2010
• ion is an incorrect correction. I can't promote the idea of editing other's replies. - qfreed Jul 11, 2010
• ion where is that correction ??! - lovely_lovel Jul 11, 2010
• Hello all, I am very new to the sight, but have enjoyed it thus far. My intentions for joining is to become fluent in Spanish and someone correcting me would not offend me, it would actually be very much appreciated. - qlharris Jul 11, 2010
• welcome glharris - nizhoni1 Jul 11, 2010
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Answer 12

As you can see from Diccionario, here are the synonyms for pretender. Now what?link textJust put in pretender I want the admin to see that Elmundo's lists fingir the false friend as a synonym for pretender

• Sorry, I would have liked to have seen your synonyms, but the link didn't post. But honestly, my question has little to do with the word. It has more to do with how the point and flagging system is used. - qfreed Jul 11, 2010
• I looked up pretender in that dictionary. Same defintion as all the other dictionaries. No context of fingir or simular. It doesn't have that meaning. - qfreed Jul 11, 2010
• Plus, context context context. Some of the answers used the word in the wrong context. - LuisaGomezBa Jul 11, 2010
• It does list it as a synonym. - sanlee Jul 11, 2010
• Ves Gfreed, qué tonito tan feo... - LuisaGomezBa Jul 11, 2010
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Answer 13

If the members don´t pay attention to the corrections that their problem. At least you pointed t out I know I am grateful when someone points it out. I don´t think it is failing of the system, it just the member have varying amounts of knowledge. I don´t know if I would use flags for inaccurate information I only save that for inapporpriate posts. That´s why when I am not sure I check the definition in the monligual dictionary or compare definitions.

• Sanlee just pointed out a dictionary using fingir for a synonym for pretender. What does your dictionary say? - qfreed Jul 11, 2010
• I believe they used fingir incorrectly as a synonym - sanlee Jul 11, 2010
• I have had differing corrections for the same post. Who do I believe? - fontanero Jul 12, 2010

Answer 14

Plus, context context context. Some of the answers used the word in the wrong context. - LuisaGomezBa 25 mins ago flag

Once again Luisa... I agree with you

• La gente se olvida que las lenguas no son matemáticas... - LuisaGomezBa Jul 11, 2010
• A comment stating translation is ok, but context is wrong, would be helpful. - fontanero Jul 12, 2010

Answer 15

Here´s my view on people gett up set over being corrected which the point of qfreed´s thread If you believe that you´re perfect, you´ll get upset when someone correct you If you´re humble and realize you´re going to mistakes that you won´t be.

What I do is compare the definition of the Spanish word with the definition of the English word and try to use the word that is closest in meaning. Sometimes, I need to clarify in what sense I am using English word before I can chose the right Spanish word. Also realize that languages don´t always follow the rule so pretender might be increasingly used like pretend as in claim faslely or to fake although that not the true definition of the word especially where Spanish has been influenced by English.

• Basically, you try your best to give an accurate translation. I believe you should be commended for that. - fontanero Jul 12, 2010