I am bilingual

Question

Recientemente tuve una pequeña discusión con una persona que dice ser bilingue. Esta persona, como muchas en este país (USA), habla, lee y escribe relativamente bien inglés. Sin embargo habla "Spanglish", no español, lee y escribe muy mal el español. Es una persona nacida y criada aquí y el poco español que habla lo aprendió de sus padres, de origen mejicano.

Para mi, una persona bilingue (inglés-español), es una persona que habla, lee y escribe bien los dos idiomas, punto.

Me gustaría conocer su opinión. Gracias

Recently I had a little discussion with someone that says she is bilingual. This person, like many in this country (USA), speaks, read and write relatively well English. However, she speaks Spanglish, not Spanish and read and write very badly her Spanish. She was born and raised here in America and the poor Spanish she speaks she learned it from her parents, originally from Mexico.

In my opinion, a bilingual person (English-Spanish), is a person that speaks, reads and writes well in both languages, period.

I would like to know your opinion. Thank you.

• Thank you for such a great topic. I'm sure we will all learn from the different points of view expressed. - Goyo Feb 12, 2010
• Con mucho gusto Goyo - RicardoP Feb 12, 2010
• Buen hilo Ricardo - Izanoni1 Feb 12, 2010
• buen hilo Ricardo - Nicole-B Feb 12, 2010
• Yes, good topic. - Goldie_Miel Oct 26, 2011

Answer 1

Creo que si una persona puede arreglarse bien en dos idiomas, pues es bilingue. O sea, si puede explicarse sin impedimentos, y a una rapidez normal, y si lo que dice suena bien. Leer y escribir son otras cosas. Hay mucha gente que no saben leer o escribir aun en su lengua materna. Hablar y entender forman parte de la naturaleza humana, pero escribir y leer son cosas que hay que ser enseñado.

I think that if a person can get along well in two languages, then they are bilingual. That is, if they can express themselves easily, at a normal speed, and if what they say does not sound awkward. Reading and writing is a different thing. There are lots of people who can´t read or write even in their native language, but we would still call them fluent. Speaking and understanding are part of human nature, but reading and writing are things that must be taught.

• Very interesting your comment Kattya. Thanks - RicardoP Feb 12, 2010
• Una persona que habla, lee y escribe bien inglés, pero habla Spanglish, medio lee y medio escribe el español, en mi opinión no merece ser llamada bilingue. - RicardoP Feb 12, 2010
• I am bilingual too, but I can't write in the one language...so I would agree with you! - Tonyico Oct 26, 2011
• I am trilingual actually if you think of spanish...but I am not fluent in spanish - Tonyico Oct 26, 2011
• At the same time, some people can barely speak their own language right (i.e., it sounds awkward) - Goldie_Miel Oct 26, 2011

Answer 2

In my opinion, a bilingual person (English-Spanish), is a person that speaks, reads and writes well in both languages, period.

I think that when phrased this way, the question becomes one of degree - what or who determines the "how well?" I find this definition somewhat troubling, especially if you extend this definition to include monolingual children. For example, if my six-year old son demonstrates a superior ability to communicate, orally and in writing, and can read at an advanced level compared to his peers, then he will be considered exceptional. This is because children of the same age level (although not necessarily of the same experience level), do not show the same level of proficiency. In this context, my child would be considered proficient, yet if you were to compare him to college graduates, your evaluation of his abilities would likely change.

On the other hand, when I was growing up, there was an older man in my town who everybody used to call "Popeye" (often "pops" for short). It would not be much of a stretch to say that pops probably knew at least half the people in my town. Everybody liked him because he was outgoing, friendly and generous (he might walk ten miles just to help someone out), but above all Pops used to tell great stories - he was a real talker. Later, when I was in college, I remember finding out something about Pops that I never knew before. You see, I ran into Pops at my school, and when I saw him, I waved to him, but when I did, something seemed different - almost wrong. For the first time in my life (and possibly in his) Pops actually seemed to be at a loss for words. I soon found out the reason for this awkwardness. After 73 years, living on this earth Pops had decided that it was time that he finally learn to read and write. I was shocked that someone who had lived his life as a sort of local celebrity based on his "gift of gab" could barely spell his own name.

I don't know if this long-winded digression has made my point, but what I am asking is this. What is the determinant or standard of fluency, and is this a fair determinant of the concept of lingualism (whether it be monolingualism, bilingualism or multilingualism)?

A definition such as this, based on proficiency, would leave most children and many adults, excuse the expression, without a pot to piss in. It would require the invention of a new word along the lines of alingual or nullingual to describe them. But I believe that this would be an unfair representation of children who certainly speak the language, yet, due to lack of experience, do not comprehend at the level of a mono-, bi- or multilingual speaker. More importantly, it would be a gross mischaracterization of a man like pops and the untold thousands of others who have lived their lives speaking a language, yet lack ability in one or more areas. My point is this: Both pops and my six-year old son certainly speak and understand English. There is no question in my mind about this.

Because of this, I'm not sure that literacy nor level of education should be the qualifying determinant (although, certainly, there are varying levels of proficiency and skill) as to whether or not someone speaks a language (lingualism). In the end (and what I probably should have said in the first place) is that it is probably more realistic to classify a person´s lingualism based on a single factor - does that person have the ability to actually think in a given language. That is, is there a direct path from the words/symbols of the language to the actual ideas or concepts that these symbols represent. And is there a direct path from the mind´s ideas/concepts to the symbols/words of spoken/written language.

• That's some good stuff Iz. - Goyo Feb 12, 2010
• Interesante disertación, muy bien fundamentada. ¿Sabes? Este mundo está lleno de Pops y no nos damos cuenta. Gracias por tus comentarios Izanoni. - RicardoP Feb 12, 2010
• I wanna double vote this one. - jaimetayag Feb 12, 2010
• Wow!! - Yeser007 Feb 14, 2010
• Double wow! - territurtle Oct 26, 2011

Answer 3

If that girl you were talking about were sent back to México and forced to adapt to her surroundings by taking the -glish off the Span- I'm sure she would be able to in a heartbeat.

I think it is normal for a "bilingual" person to be better at one language than another, and the balance of fluency can and will shift according to the environment.

It is also possible for a bilingual person to be bad at both languages.

I've also known a few people who were supposedly "fluent" in English that have had advanced studies in English Lit/language studies/English language education, even Ph. D level, but I found their spoken English painful to hear and their written English painful to read in that they affected a mastery of the language that was dissonant, grammatically and idiomatically off and thus not fluent. So while on paper (and in their heads) they were fluent, they in reality had no fluidity at all.

Fluency and bilingualism are relative, with a whole lot of gray areas. Hardly, if at all, black and white.

• I had not thought on that Jaime. Very interesting indeed. Thanks - RicardoP Feb 12, 2010
• oh well, I was just thinking about that, language can not be mesured or counted like bananas! Excellent point of view. - juluque Feb 12, 2010
• I like that juluque...."cannot be counted like bananas" - Izanoni1 Feb 12, 2010

Answer 4

I agree.

In my opinion, a person would have to dominate or master both languages to be called "bilingual." When I say a bilingual person must "master" both languages I don't mean that one must master it at a university level, but rather, at a level where the majority of people speaking the language can easily understand him. A person would be considered fluent in a language if, for example, he could be hired at a job that required that language.

Spanglish does not, in any way, demonstrate a mastery of Spanish.

• Completely agree, thanks Marianne - RicardoP Feb 12, 2010
• Well said, Marianne. In fact, Spanglish is really a lack of knowledge of 2 languages. - JulianChivi Feb 12, 2010

Answer 5

Yo también estoy de acuerdo con Ricardo, no se si mastering (dependiendo por lo que se entiende como maestría) sea necesaria. Pero al menos poder tener una comunicación fluida en ambas lenguas y sobre todo poder escribir y leer, sin que esto signifique ser un experto en ninguna de ambas lenguas. Lo que yo experimenté al vivir aquí en los EEUU es que muchos hijos de inmigrantes aprendieron un español muy básico y no tuvieron educación formal en español y creen que por hablar algunas frases o palabras ya son bilingues. Y en realidad solo hablan, como ya se mencionó anteriormente, Spanglish. De cualquier manera es mejor Spanglish que nada. Muchas veces esas personas pueden resolver situaciones cotidianas por conocer un poco de español y los ponen un una posicion beneficiosa. Ahora eso no les da el derecho a autoproclamarse bilingue ehhh, no, no, no. Bilingue es aquel que puede resolver o traducir los hilos "killers" de Heidita, eso si es ser bilingue, jajajaja

• Muy acertado e interesante tu comentario Juluque. Muchas gracias - RicardoP Feb 12, 2010
• al contrario, puedo traducir los killer hilos, pero no soy bilingue!! :) Es que puedo leer, pero hablo fatal. - kattya Feb 12, 2010
• that was a joke Kattya :-) - juluque Feb 12, 2010
• I have a similar situation at work. A guy here (mexican grandfather) believes he's bilingual. I have a hard time undestanding him most of the time. He uses a lot of wrong words, like "pipas" instead of "tuberías" and "llamar para atras" for calling back. - Guillermo2 Feb 12, 2010
• Esto sucede con mucha frecuencia en este país, por todos lados te encuentras con gente "bilingue" - RicardoP Feb 12, 2010

Answer 6

A few months back, I remember having a similar conversation regarding the use of Spanglish with Lazarus. To me, your perspective speaks a lot to the fact that the use of "Spanglish" by second and third generation descendants of immigrant parents/grandparents qualifies it as a sort of hybrid language - similar to yet, at the same time, different from both Spanish and English. I say this because not only does the grammar usually vary from proper Spanish (as it is somewhat of a hybrid of Spanish and English), there are also many invented and borrowed (or misused depending on your perspective) words that are used by the people who speak "Spanglish."

Where I live, in south Texas, there are probably at least a few million people who this description characterizes. I have spoken to quite a few who have related that when they go to visit their extended family in Mexico, they often are received differently on account of their "strange" use of the language (referring to Spanish). Where I am from, this dialect, hybrid, pidjin, code switching, Spanglish - or whatever you might wish to call it - is referred to as Tex-Mex.

In my opinion, there are enough differences to qualify it as its own little "pocket language," distinct from both Spanish and English, but I know that there are others who would disagree.

• Muy interesantes comentarios Izanoni, como siempre. Muchas gracias - RicardoP Feb 12, 2010
• Estoy de acuerdo. Conozco a muchas personas que piensan que hablan español perfectamente pero no saben muchas palabras básicas porque sólo aprendieron español en casa y nunca usan fuera de su familia. - Luciente Feb 12, 2010
• More like a dialect, I think? - territurtle Oct 26, 2011

Answer 7

RicardoP, gracias por tu comentario; estoy completamente de acuerdo. Para mí, una persona bilingue puede manejarse sin problema igualmente en dos idiomas. He notado también que hay varias personas que se consideran "bilingues" o "fluentes" en dos idiomas, pero - a mi vista - no lo son. Pero, en fin, no me puedo molestar por eso, verdad?

• Sólo quería conocer la opinión de todos en el foro, es todo. Muchas gracias por tu participación. - RicardoP Feb 12, 2010

Answer 8

Desde mi punto de vista ser bilingüe significa la capacidad de comunicarse en dos lenguas. Hay un término en ingles que define a lo que usted se refiere; biliterate (I couldn’t find the definition in Spanish) o la capacidad de leer y escribir en dos lenguas. Entonces, creo yo, que son bilingües aunque desafortunadamente no “biliterates”

• Esa no me la sabía Shrek, qué interesante. Biliterate, uhmmmm... - RicardoP Feb 12, 2010
• Este término lo he visto en curriculum vitaes o “resumes” y se usa para aclarar que la persona interesada en el empleo no solo habla dos lenguas, sino que también lee y escribe en ambas lenguas. - Shrek Feb 12, 2010
• Muchas gracias Shrek, súper interesante - RicardoP Feb 12, 2010

Answer 9

bilingüe. (definición de el diccionario de la Real Academia Española)

(Del lat. bilinguis).

1. adj. Que habla dos lenguas.

2. adj. Escrito en dos idiomas.

bilingual from Merriam Webstern

Main Entry: bi·lin·gual Pronunciation: (ˌ)bī-ˈliŋ-gwəl also -gyə-wəl\ Function: adjective Etymology: Latin bilinguis, from bi- + lingua tongue — more at tongue Date: 1829

1 : having or expressed in two languages 2 : using or able to use two languages especially with equal fluency 3 : of or relating to bilingual education

• Muchas gracias Juluque. Con base en el comentario de Shrek, habría que buscar el significado de "biliterate". A ver si me ayudas. gracias. - RicardoP Feb 12, 2010
• bi⋅lit⋅er⋅ate   /baɪˈlɪtərɪt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [bahy-lit-er-it] Show IPA –adjective 1. able to read and write in two languages. –noun 2. a person who is biliterate. - juluque Feb 12, 2010
• Gracias Juluque - RicardoP Feb 12, 2010
• If literacy were considered a requirement for fluency, many Americans wouldn´t even be mono-lingual! - dogbert Feb 12, 2010
• How very sad, but true, Dogbert. - territurtle Oct 26, 2011

Answer 10

Ricardo, como muchos en este hilo, estoy completamente de acuerdo contigo. Sin embargo, algo muy importante que todavía no se ha recibido comentario es el sentimiento que uno transmite hablandose. Es decir, si no impartes el sentimiento apropiado, no hablas fluidamente. En mi opinión, tienes que entender como sentirá el oyente de tus palabras en ambos idiomas para poder decir que eres bilingüe.

• Muy interesante tu comentario Julian, no había pensado en eso. Muchas gracias. - RicardoP Feb 12, 2010
• Qué resonante, lo del sentimiento. - jaimetayag Feb 12, 2010

Answer 11

The traditional meaning of "bilingual" (as used by people writing about language acquisition, child psychology and linguistics) is equally adept/comfortable in two languages (of which, one is the person's "native" language"). The emphasis being on the equality (literacy is not a requirement). Thus, if I am reasonably fluent in Spanish and French (I'm not, actually my Spanish is much better than my French) that doesn't matter because neither holds a candle to to my knowledge of English. In fact, I realized a long time ago that I would never attain the "degree of comfort" in any other language that I have in English. I can aspire to fluency in Spanish, French or Japanese but even if I were to spend the rest of my life in Spain, France or Japan, I would still be most comfortable in English.

Leaving aside the tendency to exaggerate when writing resumés,. the distinction between "bilingualism" and "fluent in two languages" is rarely (never) of interest to employers. Their only concern is fluency in (some) language. For their purposes it is sufficient that one can communicate effectively in some language (for their purposes, being more adept at your native language is irrelevant). For this reason, they are quite happy to dismiss (as "nit-picking") questions of "equality" of comfort. The bottom line is can you handle the language well enough for their purposes.

Answer 12

I was browsing through the views expressed regarding bilingualism and want to pen down some thoughts from a different part of the world.

I am from India and in this country more often not, most people are multilingual. Take my own case. I had studied in a missionary school where the medium of instruction was English. In India, although English is the lingua franca, the national language is Hindi and I am very fluent at it. I studied lelementary French in school and in my college years, I had obtained a Diploma in the advanced level of the language. I ancestrally belong to South India and my mother tongue is Telugu. I am fond of poetry and have a intermediate level knowledge of Urdu. I am 63 years of age and have lately taken up Spanish on my own. How tough is is to for me to switch from one language to another?. Well, I have no problem in switching from English to Hindi or to my mother tongue. Frankly, while I feel it easy to pen my thoughts and converse in English; while the underlying thought or feeling is always in English, the sub conscious is able to convey the expression in the other languages that I know, as per the nuance of that language. However, what is important to realize is that the while the mind always tends to focus on one’s language of choice, the beauty of the other known language(s) is never lost sight of. That to my mind is the essence of being bi or multiligual.

• Nice point. - annierats Oct 26, 2011

Answer 13

Mi jefe siempre dice que yo soy "multilingüe" y me parece una exageración insoportable. Me manejo bien con el idioma de Madagascar (el “Malagasy”) pero mi capacidad para escribir y leer es pésima. Al contrario puedo leer y escribir en el francés al nivel universitario pero me cuesta hablarlo, aunque entiendo casi todo que escucho. He hablado el inglés toda mi vida y sí soy fluente, es mi lengua nativa, pero también creo que soy fluente en el castellano (así lo llamamos el español en Chile). Cuando enseño el español encuentro los mismos problemas que cuando enseño el inglés. Sé que esta frase me suena mejor, pero a veces no me acuerdo de la regla gramatical. Se me olvido del “why” aunque sé que yo sé que ese es lo correcto.

• Admiro y respeto mucho las personas que hablan varios idiomas. Muy interesantes sus comentarios. Gracias lachelvi. - RicardoP Feb 12, 2010

Answer 14

Wow, who would've have thought defining bilingual would be so difficult. In the Phillipines Mix-Mix or Hulo-Hulo is a very accepted pattern of speech. In one sentence, there may be words or phrases from 3 or more languages. In general, the speaker will use the whichever language expresses the word or phrase most succinctly and efficiently.

One needs to be proficient in all the languages to follow the conversation but based on some of the definitions here, that person wouldn't be considered bilingual because they rarely speak purely in one language.

• I live in the Philippines and I think Taglish/Englog are among the most annoying hybrid languages. The propensity to speak them is great, which is why I make a conscious effort not to succumb. - jaimetayag Feb 12, 2010
• In Madagascar many educated people speak "Vary amin'ny ananana" which is a mix of Malagasy, English, and French. - lachelvi Feb 18, 2010

Answer 15

Spanglish is neither English nor Spanish, so that will make the person MONOlingual

Now some serious consideration: I think more like RicardoP: a bilingual person is someone who does not make any difference when using one language or the other, like so many Canadians do in Montreal. Or Italians speaking dialect and the official language. Or the Swiss. Or any other person who is born and raised in a bilingual community.

However, I ´m not sure USA is a bilingual country. It´s a heavily Spanish influenced country due to a growing Spanish-speaking community but far from a bilingual country. So, I think very few people may be considered bilingual in those conditions.

Anyway, if you don´t feel bilingual is a good adjective for your friend, you can say s/he´s not a pure bilingual, so you will add a clear distinction between someone fluent on a second language and someone who has developed both languages from the cradle.

I speak some good Italian too (although it´s a bit rusty) but I do not consider myself trilingual.

The subject is controversial and has been around for decades. Check this article on multilingualism.

And what about polyglots? Are there pure polyglots and amateur polyglots?

Check these people. They are amazing!

· João Guimarães Rosa - one of the most famous Brazilian writers, spoke more than twelve languages fluently, read eighteen.

· James Joyce - famous Irish writer, spoke thirteen languages.

· Anthony Burgess - British writer, knew thirteen languages, fluent in eight.

• Thanks for the links medi. - Izanoni1 Feb 14, 2010
• Very interesting medi, very interesting. Thanks a lot for giving us a bit of your time and knowledge. - RicardoP Feb 14, 2010