Contextual use of "se"

Question

Hi good folks. am trying to wrap my brain around the seemingly omnipresent-yet-elusive "se". Can someone (or everyone) give me an idea of how se is functioning in the following sentences found while reading La Prensa de Los Angeles (that's the city, not the heavenly creatures :>). My confusion comes with understanding if these are reflexive verbs and if this is why the "se" is there along with the indirect pronouns. My understanding is that, if "se" were functioning to counter the "le lo" misstep, it would be followed by a direct pronoun. Anyhow, some clarity on this point would be a simply wonderful thing. Okay, here we go:

Kennedy pide que se le otorgue a Patric la autoridad para que designe a alguien temporalmente antes de que los votantes elijan un nuevo senador en una elección especial", añadió el diario.

and...

¿Pero qué sucede cuando estamos pasados de peso? A los hombres, al igual que a las mujeres, se les hace difícil seleccionar la ropa adecuada y piensan que nada les queda bien.

Thanks,

D

Answer 1

I will try to help with the second sentence. Actually, it is not that I know the answer, but rather that I can point out what I find in my Gran Dicionario Oxford.

Hacerse is a pronominal verb and there are a lot of translations for it. I found two that may pertain to your sentence.

I. 1. (producirse) Here are some examples:

Se me hizo un nudo en el hilo. I got a knot in the thread. (me instead of les, in this example, obviously)

Se le ha hecho una ampolla. She’s got a blister. (She is “le” in this example – where you have the “les”)

And in Mexico there is the expression, according to my dictionary “hacérsele algo a alguien” with this example:

Por fin se le hizo ganar el premio. She finally got to win the award.

Then there is a second roman numeral behind which are still more meanings for this pronominal verb hacerse.

II.2 (resultar) ...this is the one I think you are looking for!!

Here the examples:

Esto se hace muy pesado. This gets very boring. (+me/te/le/etc.) (results in being boring, I guess)

Se me hizo interminable. It seemed interminable.

Se me hace difícil creerlo. I find it hard to believe.

And this seems analagous to me: It is difficult for the men in your sentence (les) seleccionar la ropa adecuada”, right? And we can imagine that it results in being difficult because the men are “pasados de pesos”.

Now, if I am completely off base here, please someone comment until an administrator can get around to deleting my response.

Oh yes...Perhaps your real question is the bigger one about why there are such things as pronominal verbs?...Why are these verbs pronominal?....What function do pronominal verbs have?

You can find some good discussions on that question here by searching "Answers" for “pronominal”. In fact, I can try to do the search for you and put the links in a second post.

Answer 2

Kennedy pide que se le otorgue a Patric la autoridad....

main clause =Kennedy pide (forget it, it has nothing to do with the se)

noun clause= se le otorgue a Patric la autoridad...

I believe this is the detransitizing (pronominal) se. ...that the authority be granted to Patric... Rather than so and so grants authority to Patric (transitive) SVO

I get this confused with the passive se, however, so wait for a better explanation. To me the authority is the subject of the clause and receives the action of the verb so I would say it is the passive se, but I've been corrected on that before so I balk on saying that.

---

..., se les hace difícil seleccionar...

same logic here, the detransitizing se. It is using the verb "hacerse" which means "to become"

It becomes more difficult for them to select....

or it makes it more difficult for them to select....

rather than so snd so make them be more difficult (transitive) SVO

again it appears to be passive to me. to select to me is the subject receives the action of the verb, is made more difficult, but again I hesitate to use the word passive.

Just look at the sentences (clauses) and compare them to the syntax of a gustar sentence (intransitive). OVS

I hope someone can contrast this detransitizing (pronominal) se with the passive se.

Or maybe I'm totally off base here.

• You bravely took it upon yourself to handle the bigger question, Quentin! Bravo! - Janice 22 de Ago, 2009

Answer 3

Here we go! From the reference and also the source from which the reference was taken with many persons' comments:

The reference for transitive and reflexive pronominal verbs & pronouns by lazarus The original thread, with comments from forum readers

Answer 4

Kennedy pide que se le otorgue a Patric la autoridad...

This is normally called a passive reflexive SE. It would be the same if you said:

Kennedy pide que le sea otorgada a Patric la autoridad... (the authority be awarded to Patrick)

...se les hace difícil seleccionar la ropa adecuada...

"Hacer" is normally a transitive verb. If you use it, something must be done; in Spanish you can't simply say "I make", and end the sentence there, because this verb cannot be used intransitively (without an object). Spanish normally accomplishes this with SE. A phrase like this:

to make something more difficult = hacer algo más difícil

requires a subject (someone or something that will make something more difficult), and it has an object. If you want to construct its intransitive counterpart, English does not allow you to use this particular verb intransitively for this (although you can with many verbs):

Something made more difficult (????)

You have to say

Something got / became more difficult

In Spanish, you keep the same verb, but using SE to achieve this (ie. to detransitivize the verb):

Hacer algo más difícil.

Algo se hace más difícil.

Optionally, you can specify that things are getting more difficult for someone. We do this with an indirect object: le.

Se le hace difícil algo.

If instead of "algo", you want to say something more elaborated, use an infinitive clause, such as "seleccionar la ropa adecuada".

I find it absurd that they explain to learners that any verb with "se" is reflexive, meaning that the subject and the verb are the same.

Answer 5

Lazarus is absurd...you use "se" when you are definately talking about a third thing or it is a moderno. esa tipa se ve muy bien....she looks good. "se vende" it's for sale...but in the course of normal conversation with normal people, you just it when you are talking about that object over there that is for sale or looks good or acts alcurnia...

• Wow! Good thing that you came to teach me grammar. You should write a book. - lazarus1907 23 de Ago, 2009

Answer 6

example..."oye asere, has visto la wawa que el compro?" "si, yo la vi and se ve muy bien"....its a definate third object and how it (itself) looks, smells, etc.

• I don't think you are recognizing/explaining something different with the example, lkpuede. "...se ve muy bien" can be translated wtih the passive "it can be seen.." or with an active, but impersonal active construction "one can see it"...anyone. - Janice 23 de Ago, 2009
• I don't really know the correct grammar words, but Lazarus really does and it is truly helpful for those of us who must learn from a book instead of by immersion - I agree: immersion is faster! In the meantime, Lazarus' exlanations help us "understand" !! - Janice 23 de Ago, 2009

Answer 7

example..."oye asere, has visto la wawa que el compro?" "si, yo la vi and se ve muy bien"....its a definate third object and how it (itself) looks, smells, etc.

• What is the 3rd object? Snf while you're at it, what, in your view are the 1st and 2nd objects? - samdie 23 de Ago, 2009

Answer 8

I noticed the position of the word "Algo" can be placed at the start of the sentence ie....."Algo se hace más dificil" (something became more difficult)......... and then manipulated to be placed at the end of the sentence in ......."Se le hace dificil algo" (something became difficult for him/her)...... even though "algo" remains the subject.

This explanation is an excellent example to see how things can be manipulated in Spanish.

Thank you Laza.

Answer 9

Thanks everyone for your input. Lazarus, you sure offer some great stuff to chew on. I will continue my "Lucha con Sr. Se". What I would like to ask at this point is, when I encounter this Sr. Se in one of his manifestations, what are the most salient "CUES" I can look for in order to understand its function contextually. The phrases I offered both have a similar structure of se and then an iop. When I see that, what are my options...or, rather, what are the options of what is being related to me?

I am very new to this forum (and am so grateful to have found it) but, there are other uses of "se" that I have been taught that I don't think I've seen here...or not utilized to address some of the questions presented: se inesperado; se expressing a degree of culpability; se expressing a degree of empathy for an unfortunate event. Sr. Se, as I've come to call him -- and his hijos me, te and nos -- seem to be everywhere, morphing into all sorts of meanings over time so as to make certain they remain the #1 family of Spanish.

There is a tremendous amount that I am able to wrap my brain around in this wonderful language. This structure containing se and le remains slippery.

Thanks again so much for the input of all!!!

• Oh! I just understood "Lucha con Sr. Se" .. How clever! I hope it is not a quixotic battle:-) - Janice 23 de Ago, 2009

Answer 10

..., se les hace difícil seleccionar...

same logic here, the detransitizing se. It is using the verb "hacerse" which means "to become"

It becomes more difficult for them to select.... or it makes it more difficult for them to select.... rather than so snd so make them be more difficult (transitive) SVO

again it appears to be passive to me. to select to me is the subject receives the action of the verb, is made more difficult, but again I hesitate to use the word passive.

The recipient of the action (that which is affected by the action) (in other words the direct object) is/are the thing(s) selected. Latin had (and one encounters the term in discussions of Spanish) what was called the "dative of benefit" which refers to the (usually) person who was affected (benefited/suffered) from the action. This, however, makes them some kind of "indirect object".

Answer 11

example..."oye asere, has visto la wawa que el compro?" "si, yo la vi and se ve muy bien"....its a definate third object and how it (itself) looks, smells, etc. lkpuede

Thank you Sam, I was going to ask JUST that! What the heck is a third object and a first and second for that matter? Ikpuede, I really think you should not get into grammar matters as you do not have expertise on the subject.

What is the 3rd object? Snf while you're at it, what, in your view are the 1st and 2nd objects? - samdie